The Video Assistant Referee (VAR)

[tomav84]

i wholeheartedly disagree with the 'waiting 3 mins before celebrating' point. i've asked folks the same question many times before and they seldom get an answer...what happens if you celebrate in the moment and it's then chalked off? nothing...you look a little bit silly...that's it. if you were in the ground the opposition fans would go "waaaay" when the decision got overturned and that would be it. VAR will only take away the enjoyment of celebrating a goal if you let it! it seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face for me...each to his own but i continue to go nuts when goals go in

per someone else's point, it's not the technology's fault it's not working...it's the refs. saturday's decision should not have been overturned because it was not a clear error. these are highly qualified referees we're talking about, and they continue to make clangers.

i just wish they got held accountable...i'd have much more respect if they had a microphone shoved in their faces by sky post game with the reporter asking "VAR is only supposed to overturn clear errors, do you think you made a clear error on the pitch today then Michael?"

[sharkyvilla]

4 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i wholeheartedly disagree with the 'waiting 3 mins before celebrating' point. i've asked folks the same question many times before and they seldom get an answer...what happens if you celebrate in the moment and it's then chalked off? nothing...you look a little bit silly...that's it. if you were in the ground the opposition fans would go "waaaay" when the decision got overturned and that would be it. VAR will only take away the enjoyment of celebrating a goal if you let it! it seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face for me...each to his own but i continue to go nuts when goals go in

per someone else's point, it's not the technology's fault it's not working...it's the refs. saturday's decision should not have been overturned because it was not a clear error. these are highly qualified referees we're talking about, and they continue to make clangers.

i just wish they got held accountable...i'd have much more respect if they had a microphone shoved in their faces by sky post game with the reporter asking "VAR is only supposed to overturn clear errors, do you think you made a clear error on the pitch today then Michael?"

It would be good if refs were also allowed to say how shit certain players played and what a crap job managers have done when interviewed. It's all a bit one way at the moment.

[tomav84]

1 minute ago, sharkyvilla said:

It would be good if refs were also allowed to say how shit certain players played and what a crap job managers have done when interviewed. It's all a bit one way at the moment.

well in all seriousness that would be their prerogative as part of their post match media commitments. if they wanted to comment of certain players or managers conduct during the game then that would be up to them

[Mantis]

3 hours ago, tomav84 said:

i wholeheartedly disagree with the 'waiting 3 mins before celebrating' point. i've asked folks the same question many times before and they seldom get an answer...what happens if you celebrate in the moment and it's then chalked off? nothing...you look a little bit silly...that's it. if you were in the ground the opposition fans would go "waaaay" when the decision got overturned and that would be it. VAR will only take away the enjoyment of celebrating a goal if you let it! it seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face for me...each to his own but i continue to go nuts when goals go in

per someone else's point, it's not the technology's fault it's not working...it's the refs. saturday's decision should not have been overturned because it was not a clear error. these are highly qualified referees we're talking about, and they continue to make clangers.

i just wish they got held accountable...i'd have much more respect if they had a microphone shoved in their faces by sky post game with the reporter asking "VAR is only supposed to overturn clear errors, do you think you made a clear error on the pitch today then Michael?"

I think a lot of the issue is that part of the spontaneity has been taken out of the game in exchange for... basically nothing except errors being made in slow motion rather than real time.

[PussEKatt]

I watched a game a few weeks ago and a goal was scored,then VAR overturned it because of the 3 players that were running into the 18 yard box,one was offside by about half an inch.FFS they drew lines across the box and you could see that one player had his big toe over the line.

Admittedly,that was offside.Thats technology for you.

[bannedfromHandV]

On 25/11/2020 at 13:24, tomav84 said:

i wholeheartedly disagree with the 'waiting 3 mins before celebrating' point. i've asked folks the same question many times before and they seldom get an answer...what happens if you celebrate in the moment and it's then chalked off? nothing...you look a little bit silly...that's it. if you were in the ground the opposition fans would go "waaaay" when the decision got overturned and that would be it. VAR will only take away the enjoyment of celebrating a goal if you let it! it seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face for me...each to his own but i continue to go nuts when goals go in

per someone else's point, it's not the technology's fault it's not working...it's the refs. saturday's decision should not have been overturned because it was not a clear error. these are highly qualified referees we're talking about, and they continue to make clangers.

i just wish they got held accountable...i'd have much more respect if they had a microphone shoved in their faces by sky post game with the reporter asking "VAR is only supposed to overturn clear errors, do you think you made a clear error on the pitch today then Michael?"

It’s got nothing to do with being embarrassed, I’m surprised you haven’t adapted your celebration yet but kudos to you, I would suspect you’re in the minority though.

My first thought now when a goal goes in is to go through a process of working out how and if it can be ruled out before I let go, though it’s getting to the point now where I only breathe easy when the game restarts, by then the jubilation is over and an underwhelming sense of satisfaction and relief sets in.

And we haven’t even had a big one yet really, I’m dreading the day we have a goal dubiously ruled out by VAR in a big match/moment.

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

It’s got nothing to do with being embarrassed, I’m surprised you haven’t adapted your celebration yet but kudos to you, I would suspect you’re in the minority though.

My first thought now when a goal goes in is to go through a process of working out how and if it can be ruled out before I let go, though it’s getting to the point now where I only breathe easy when the game restarts, by then the jubilation is over and an underwhelming sense of satisfaction and relief sets in.

And we haven’t even had a big one yet really, I’m dreading the day we have a goal dubiously ruled out by VAR in a big match/moment.

I still celebrate like normal. Like John McGinn's ruled out goal against Arsenal. I was celebrating. Unless the goal looks dubious/offside, I don't hesitate. I couldn't tell Barkley was blocking the keeper's view so it looked like a good goal to me in real time. If VAR intervenes after the fact, so be it. It adds a bit of drama as well

The number of goals ruled out after the fact is relatively small. Last season, 6% of all the goals scored were ruled out. That's not the issue really. It's how it interprets hand ball/offside/fouls etc, typically for penalty situations that's the problem. And really, that's a refereeing problem and will persist with or without VAR. It's just that the fact that it exist with VAR that makes it so egregious.

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

I still celebrate like normal. Like John McGinn's ruled out goal against Arsenal. I was celebrating. Unless the goal looks dubious/offside, I don't hesitate. I couldn't tell Barkley was blocking the keeper's view so it looked like a good goal to me in real time. If VAR intervenes after the fact, so be it. It adds a bit of drama as well

The number of goals ruled out after the fact is relatively small. Last season, 6% of all the goals scored were ruled out. That's not the issue really. It's how it interprets hand ball/offside/fouls etc, typically for penalty situations that's the problem. And really, that's a refereeing problem and will persist with or without VAR. It's just that the fact that it exist with VAR that makes it so egregious.

I think it takes away from the drama, entirely, the creation of this artificial ‘drama’ isn’t what i signed up for as a football fan, but each to their own.

[Keyblade]

2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I think it takes away from the drama, entirely, the creation of this artificial ‘drama’ isn’t what i signed up for as a football fan, but each to their own.

It's not artificial if it's the correct decision is it?

Just like it wouldn't be if the linesman flagged offside, or if he saw a push or something else the ref missed. Not every goal should be given just because.

[tomav84]

11 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

It’s got nothing to do with being embarrassed, I’m surprised you haven’t adapted your celebration yet but kudos to you, I would suspect you’re in the minority though.

My first thought now when a goal goes in is to go through a process of working out how and if it can be ruled out before I let go, though it’s getting to the point now where I only breathe easy when the game restarts, by then the jubilation is over and an underwhelming sense of satisfaction and relief sets in.

And we haven’t even had a big one yet really, I’m dreading the day we have a goal dubiously ruled out by VAR in a big match/moment.

if it's not for fear of embarrassment, why do not celebrate? why does your mind just go to VAR? this is the point i'm making, it's like people are allowing VAR to take away their enjoyment, when they could just enjoy the moment and if the goal is chalked off then so be it. you seriously telling me you didn't go **** crazy when jack scored vs west ham last game of the season? or dancing around your living room as each of the 7 went in vs liverpool? maybe it's just me then....

and actually, i'm not in the minority, otherwise the grounds would have been fairly quiet when goals went in. back when crowds were in the stadiums, goals were celebrated as normal...there was sometimes one or 2 around me with a stroppy look on their faces not celebrating because they felt like they couldn't....they looked rather daft indeed with everyone else going nuts as normal.

[PussEKatt]

11 hours ago, Keyblade said:

It's not artificial if it's the correct decision is it?

Just like it wouldn't be if the linesman flagged offside, or if he saw a push or something else the ref missed. Not every goal should be given just because.

The thing is that if the linesman flags the ref usually stops play streight away......not 3 minutes later.

The thing is that now,irrespective of whether the goal is given or not,you have to wait for VAR before you can celebrate...It shoul be spontanious.

[bannedfromHandV]

3 hours ago, tomav84 said:

if it's not for fear of embarrassment, why do not celebrate? why does your mind just go to VAR? this is the point i'm making, it's like people are allowing VAR to take away their enjoyment, when they could just enjoy the moment and if the goal is chalked off then so be it. you seriously telling me you didn't go **** crazy when jack scored vs west ham last game of the season? or dancing around your living room as each of the 7 went in vs liverpool? maybe it's just me then....

and actually, i'm not in the minority, otherwise the grounds would have been fairly quiet when goals went in. back when crowds were in the stadiums, goals were celebrated as normal...there was sometimes one or 2 around me with a stroppy look on their faces not celebrating because they felt like they couldn't....they looked rather daft indeed with everyone else going nuts as normal.

To be fair, I haven’t experienced a Villa VAR decision live yet, always been watching on TV whenever we’ve fallen foul of it so I can’t say what I would do at the stadium.

[slowandlow]

there was a game last season at VP (maybe brighton at home) where we equalised, it was chalked off through VAR, then we scored shortly afterwards anyway (not chalked off)

the celebration for the 'second' equaliser was muted - in my view because of the recent experience of VAR. So i think it can definitely have a wider impact on the extent to which a goal is celebrated.

and i'll be honest there is always something ticking around the back of my mind whenever we score now. It was easy to glance over to see if the lino had his flag up before, now i'm to some extent on edge about whether the goal will stand until play has resumed. Might say more about me and my personality than anything else, but out of the lads i go with its a fairly common position.

 

 

[StefanAVFC]

55 minutes ago, slowandlow said:

there was a game last season at VP (maybe brighton at home) where we equalised, it was chalked off through VAR, then we scored shortly afterwards anyway (not chalked off)

the celebration for the 'second' equaliser was muted - in my view because of the recent experience of VAR. So i think it can definitely have a wider impact on the extent to which a goal is celebrated.

and i'll be honest there is always something ticking around the back of my mind whenever we score now. It was easy to glance over to see if the lino had his flag up before, now i'm to some extent on edge about whether the goal will stand until play has resumed. Might say more about me and my personality than anything else, but out of the lads i go with its a fairly common position.

 

 

Brighton again, for a non-existent foul on Ryan

[sharkyvilla]

With the celebration thing, what makes it worse for me is the offside rule being so harsh against the attacker, if it was the other way round and you were onside if any part of the striker's body is in-line then it would be more obvious to fans that the goal is likely to be VARed.  I'm not sure if I'm making any sense with that.  

[Keyblade]

2 hours ago, PussEKatt said:

The thing is that if the linesman flags the ref usually stops play streight away......not 3 minutes later.

The thing is that now,irrespective of whether the goal is given or not,you have to wait for VAR before you can celebrate...It shoul be spontanious.

If a goal can still be ruled out without VAR, then by your logic you shouldn't celebrate either because it could be offside or whatever. You are just splitting hairs about the length of time it take to make the decision, which I think is irrelevant. 

There were instances where you had to wait before VAR too, like when the linesman sees some sort of foul play leading up to a goal and the ref walks over to them and discusses it for a minute or 2 before ruling out a goal. Keep in mind, only 6% of all goals are ruled out, so if you're letting 6% change the way you celebrate goals then that's on you I'm afraid.

If VAR was implemented better, it shouldn't  reallytake long for the ref to run over to the monitor and look at a couple of angles and make a decision. This has the benefit of not being hearsay (like with the linesman), and it would be their own decision.

The problem with VAR is you have to first wait for some blokes in a completely different building to look at it first for a minute or 2, then tell the ref to look at it, he then looks at 1 angle for 2 or 3 minutes, and then sometimes still makes the wrong decision. All of that is a failing of the officials. Without VAR, you'd just get that (more frequently) incorrect decision quicker. There's still a problem.

[tom_avfc]

41 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

If a goal can still be ruled out without VAR, then by your logic you shouldn't celebrate either because it could be offside or whatever. You are just splitting hairs about the length of time it take to make the decision, which I think is irrelevant. 

There were instances where you had to wait before VAR too, like when the linesman sees some sort of foul play leading up to a goal and the ref walks over to them and discusses it for a minute or 2 before ruling out a goal. Keep in mind, only 6% of all goals are ruled out, so if you're letting 6% change the way you celebrate goals then that's on you I'm afraid.

If VAR was implemented better, it shouldn't  reallytake long for the ref to run over to the monitor and look at a couple of angles and make a decision. This has the benefit of not being hearsay (like with the linesman), and it would be their own decision.

The problem with VAR is you have to first wait for some blokes in a completely different building to look at it first for a minute or 2, then tell the ref to look at it, he then looks at 1 angle for 2 or 3 minutes, and then sometimes still makes the wrong decision. All of that is a failing of the officials. Without VAR, you'd just get that (more frequently) incorrect decision quicker. There's still a problem.

The only reason for VAR is to get the correct decision more often. The fact that we’re still seeing incorrect decisions with it and that it’s not operating particularly well makes me think they should just get rid of it now.

It’s not fit for purpose in the way it’s being used and I genuinely think that the bad decisions are easier to take when it’s human error by the referee than it is now. The number of decisions going in big teams’ favours seems higher than ever.

I say all of this and I was a big fan of it being introduced but for whatever reason it isn’t working and is making football far less enjoyable for me.

[Keyblade]

3 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

The only reason for VAR is to get the correct decision more often. The fact that we’re still seeing incorrect decisions with it and that it’s not operating particularly well makes me think they should just get rid of it now.

It’s not fit for purpose in the way it’s being used and I genuinely think that the bad decisions are easier to take when it’s human error by the referee than it is now. The number of decisions going in big teams’ favours seems higher than ever.

I say all of this and I was a big fan of it being introduced but for whatever reason it isn’t working and is making football far less enjoyable for me.

I agree. I think it did improve somewhat on the number of incorrect decisions. There was a study a couple of months ago showing that  it raised the accuracy of “match-changing decisions” from 92% to 98%. 

We're still seeing some clangers dropped even with VAR which makes it so galling as you say. I'm of a mind to say scrap it until the refs go through some kind of training, or a new crop of refs are hired or something. It's a huge bottleneck at the moment.

[tom_avfc]

2 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I agree. I think it did improve somewhat on the number of incorrect decisions. There was a study a couple of months ago showing that  it raised the accuracy of “match-changing decisions” from 92% to 98%. 

We're still seeing some clangers dropped even with VAR which makes it so galling as you say. I'm of a mind to say scrap it until the refs go through some kind of training, or a new crop of refs are hired or something. It's a huge bottleneck at the moment.

I think the issue with these stats is what they are classing as errors. If being offside by toe nail is classed as an error then I don’t think most people particularly care that the goal stands. The decisions which it is overruling are so marginal that if they are included in those stats then it’s a false narrative.

[Keyblade]

4 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

I think the issue with these stats is what they are classing as errors. If being offside by toe nail is classed as an error then I don’t think most people particularly care that the goal stands. The decisions which it is overruling are so marginal that if they are included in those stats then it’s a false narrative.

I'd need to read the study to see what's included.

What's interesting is that the median time for VAR only decisions is 15 seconds and the ones involving an on-field ref consultation 62 seconds which doesn't seem that long at all.

Also we say that we don't care about marginal offsides, but I still see Villa fans complain about Van Persie's hattrick against us for example being offside til this day. The famous one especially, his heel was like 1 cm offside. Excuse the poor picture. 

Look at the reaction thread to that match where every other post was complaining about offside. It wasn't that big of a deal because we were shit at the time, but I imagine things would be much more vitriolic if a close game was separated by some marginal offside calls like that.