Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[bickster]

1 hour ago, fruitvilla said:

I am not sure where we are differing here?

 

NATO expansion is not a threat to Russia. NATO expansion is a direct result of increased Russian aggression.

[fruitvilla]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

NATO expansion is not a threat to Russia.

4 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

But the threat (or treat, if we prefer) is not a military threat.

 

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

NATO expansion is a direct result of increased Russian aggression.

Agree ... I never said it was not.

[bickster]

1 minute ago, fruitvilla said:

 

Agree ... I never said it was not.

Like I said NATO is not the threat, close alignment with liberal democracies and specifically in this instance the EU is the threat and in your very first sentence you said it was NATO but not militarily. That is specifically wrong.

[fruitvilla]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

Like I said NATO is not the threat, close alignment with liberal democracies and specifically in this instance the EU is the threat and in your very first sentence you said it was NATO but not militarily.

And then I said

The threat is to Russia's political and economic influence in Europe. 

And you said Rubbish.

[bickster]

Just now, fruitvilla said:

And then I said

The threat is to Russia's political and economic influence in Europe. 

And you said Rubbish.

Read your first sentence.

[fruitvilla]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Read your first sentence.

Read my first paragraph ... it's short.

[villa89]

2 hours ago, sidcow said:

Putin wanted those endless miles of rolling productive fields I think. 

It's not about resources. Those Ukrainian fields are worth bollock all in the grand scheme of things. It was about Putin trying to cement his legacy as one of the great Russian leaders. He's a deluded (dying?) old fool who hasn't had any opposition in decades and is drunk on power. He wants to think of himself as a great conqueror who returned Russia back to the superpower it was when it was the soviet union. That's all this is, one man's power trip. Look at the battle tactics, he just assumed Russia would invade and take over the country in days. He has no idea Russia is second world country miles behind the real super powers. Then he throws men at the problem assuming numbers would prevail, again another delusion.

Edited December 9, 2022 by villa89

[bickster]

49 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

Read my first paragraph ... it's short.

And wrong. NATO is not an economic power.

Conflating NATO with the EU or anything else is wrong.

You are right that the threat is economic and social. That has nothing to do with NATO and that’s why what you said is rubbish.

 

[fruitvilla]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

And wrong. NATO is not an economic power.

Never claimed it was. But it is backed by economic clout. No, but Russia (from their perspective) would be unwise not to remember the arms race and the fall of the Soviet Union. The fact that they seem to have badly miscalculated is irrelevant. Keeping up with NATO has economic costs and having NATO on your doorstep is more expensive than a country or two over. It is as though Russia has bought into its own rhetoric of big bad NATO.

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

Conflating NATO with the EU or anything else is wrong.

I don't think so.  I carefully said bringing countries into the western fold. Bringing ex-Warsaw pact countries and Soviet satellites into NATO gets these countries looking west. Arms and other goods. But to be fair these countries were looking west anyway.

12 minutes ago, bickster said:

You are right that the threat is economic and social. That has nothing to do with NATO and that’s why what you said is rubbish.

How do I do a sad face?

[il_serpente]

7 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

Never claimed it was. But it is backed by economic clout. No, but Russia (from their perspective) would be unwise not to remember the arms race and the fall of the Soviet Union. The fact that they seem to have badly miscalculated is irrelevant. Keeping up with NATO has economic costs and having NATO on your doorstep is more expensive than a country or two over. It is as though Russia has bought into its own rhetoric of big bad NATO.

I don't think so.  I carefully said bringing countries into the western fold. Bringing ex-Warsaw pact countries and Soviet satellites into NATO gets these countries looking west. Arms and other goods. But to be fair these countries were looking west anyway.

How do I do a sad face?

You do realize you’ll never outlast him, don’t you?

[bickster]

5 hours ago, il_serpente said:

You do realize you’ll never outlast him, don’t you?

I gave up last night tbh

[avfc1982am]

Russian base in Melitopol. Estimated 300 Kadyrov's Chechen troops got splattered. The video taken just after the strike is quite gruesome so I purposely haven't posted it. 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by avfc1982am

[KentVillan]

On 09/12/2022 at 22:13, villa89 said:

It's not about resources. Those Ukrainian fields are worth bollock all in the grand scheme of things. It was about Putin trying to cement his legacy as one of the great Russian leaders. He's a deluded (dying?) old fool who hasn't had any opposition in decades and is drunk on power. He wants to think of himself as a great conqueror who returned Russia back to the superpower it was when it was the soviet union. That's all this is, one man's power trip. Look at the battle tactics, he just assumed Russia would invade and take over the country in days. He has no idea Russia is second world country miles behind the real super powers. Then he throws men at the problem assuming numbers would prevail, again another delusion.

I think this is the key point. It all makes a lot more strategic sense for Putin if you assume Ukraine will just roll over and NATO will be afraid to intervene (which it is btw, in terms of direct intervention).

If Ukraine rolls over and becomes part of Russia, then the relatively paltry resources on offer are irrelevant, since Putin has gained a huge amount of territory and flexed his muscles vs NATO.

What has ruined all his plans is none of this panning out as expected, and turning into a hugely costly mistake. Then he has to create new justifications and rationalisations, and goes deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole.

[Delphinho123]

Interesting article on the BBC this morning about how Russian Soldiers are imprisoned or locked away if they refuse to fight. 
This just feels like a war that will only end when one side runs out of men prepared to actually fight. It's the most pointless exercise and throughout all of it, I feel people forget just how valuable a single persons life is. It's all so needless and sad. 

The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic.

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Delphinho123 said:

Interesting article on the BBC this morning about how Russian Soldiers are imprisoned or locked away if they refuse to fight. 
This just feels like a war that will only end when one side runs out of men prepared to actually fight. It's the most pointless exercise and throughout all of it, I feel people forget just how valuable a single persons life is. It's all so needless and sad. 

The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic.

And the death of a nation?

[Delphinho123]

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

And the death of a nation?

Ukraine will win

[Tayls]

7 hours ago, bickster said:

And the death of a nation?

what did you mean by this bicks? 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Tayls said:

what did you mean by this bicks? 

It's a question that follows on from "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic."

Because what was planned by Russia for Ukraine was literally that Ukraine would no longer exist as a country.

[tinker]

9 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

Ukraine will win

Nobody really wins a war, the damage lasts decades on both sides. One goes down history as running out of will, weapons and soldiers first. 

[bickster]

Just now, tinker said:

Nobody really wins a war, the damage lasts decades on both sides. One goes down history as running out of will, weapons and soldiers first. 

If Ukraine survives it has won.