Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[sidcow]

9 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

I had the same thought and was looking for a pic from that sequence. Maybe a bit niche for some though?

(OT but best opening ever. When that parachute opens was the crest of the wave of JB.)

Have a youtube video!

 

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

 

[Mr_Dogg]

2 minutes ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

 

What an evil word removed.

[mjmooney]

2 minutes ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

 

"In fact many of them have volunteered to join the army, and have almost completed the full week-long weapons training programme". 

[Marka Ragnos]

10 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Appeasement always seems so reasonable in isolation. Men like Putin are not to be appeased.

That word, "appeasement," seems to allude to 1938 and the infamous Munich Agreement, almost 84 years to the day from now.  Not saying you intended to conjure the comparison, but it's unavoidable. And fyi: I'm writing as the son of man who experienced Nazi bombing raids in the Midlands, firsthand. Fascism and neo-fascism are deadly. I get the ominous parallels. They are uncanny, those parallels, especially when there's annexation talk, Russian speakers wanting to be "reunited" with the Motherland, etc. So ... isn't the Donetsk "just like" the Sudetenland? 

But it's just not, IMO. It's not 1938, and so many things are different. Hitler didn't have thousands of nukes, Czechoslovakia isn't anything like the Ukraine in 2022, and the Nazi state didn't just have its arse handed to it. Putin is on his knees. We can keep trying to push him down further, but I believe the Ukraine and the West are at a point of diminishing returns on that strategy, and that the perils of trying to wring some kind of capitulation from Russia are too dangerous. Just my 2 cents.  I may be wrong. I don't know. It's a horrible and scary situation.  

 

[Marka Ragnos]

9 hours ago, magnkarl said:

It's not 'The West' that decides what Ukraine should do. It's Ukraine. It's none of our business to tell a country that's essentially been raped and pillaged by Russia to do anything they don't want to. That is typical Chomsky\'Stop the war' thought processes that are outdated and frankly likely paid for by Russia.

If my "thought processes" are paid for by Russia, I'd like to know where my rubles are.  Your assessment is simplistic. It's possible to be fully in favor of holding Putin to account, passionately pro-Ukraine autonomy, and also in favor of taking a moment to consider the possibility we're at a moment when a much-weakened Putin might be willing to negotiate a solution. 

[magnkarl]

5 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

If my "thought processes" are paid for by Russia, I'd like to know where my rubles are.  Your assessment is simplistic. It's possible to be fully in favor of holding Putin to account, passionately pro-Ukraine autonomy, and also in favor of taking a moment to consider the possibility we're at a moment when a much-weakened Putin might be willing to negotiate a solution. 

Scholtz, Xi and Macron have been trying that for weeks. How is it going? Putin doesn't believe his ass is handed to him. He doesn't care about his people or Ukraine's people. The only thing that'll make him stop is if his own country and soldiers take action. How are you going to achieve that by letting him have half of another sovereign state after the other? This isn't the first time he does this, why is it that so many people believe that he'd stop now if we gave him what he wants? I'd say that it is you that is thinking in simplistic terms. Putin isn't playing by your appeasement rules, he won't back down and will take every inch given as a victory and vindication that he was right. We negotiated with Hitler. Let's not make the same mistake with the next fascist in line.

We let him do whatever he wanted in Georgia and Crimea, why do you want to be fooled three times?

Edited September 28, 2022 by magnkarl

[Marka Ragnos]

8 hours ago, sidcow said:

What do you think Macron and Scholtz have been doing in all these phone calls? It's a total waste of time. 

Even China have said it must stop. The man won't listen. 

It's possible Putin will simply self-immolate the world whilst listening to no one, but I think that he's still listening. To your point, the Russians don't respect France, and China is a dictatorship without moral authority. Putin knows that. He hates America, but like many Russians, it's always been love-hate. I have no question he would sit down with Joe Biden. Indeed, Biden would probably find it harder to stomach being near the man, and I don't blame him. He's one of the only world leaders who has spoken bluntly about what he thinks of Putin without all the diplomatic BS.

[magnkarl]

5 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

It's possible Putin will simply self-immolate the world whilst listening to no one, but I think that he's still listening. To your point, the Russians don't respect France, and China is a dictatorship without moral authority. Putin knows that. He hates America, but like many Russians, it's always been love-hate. I have no question he would sit down with Joe Biden. Indeed, Biden would probably find it harder to stomach being near the man, and I don't blame him. He's one of the only world leaders who has spoken bluntly about what he thinks of Putin without all the diplomatic BS.

So let me get this straight, you think Putin doesn't listen to the only diplomatic ally he has left, but will listen to the country they are brain washed to hate and blame for their war issues? What do you base this knowledge on?

Is that you Noam?

The Russians didn't respect the world, including USA, on Crimea, Georgia, bombing civilians with sarine gas in Syria etc. Why do you think they'll listen now? It's this line of thought which led us to where we are. No one has stood up to Putin and he's gotten this far, murdering children, wives, mothers, fathers, in charge of raping girls at the age of 4, shooting people into mass graves Nazi style. Why is it so hard to realise that he doesn't play by the appeasement process you and others argue for? It didn't work with Crimea, why would you willingly let yourself be fooled again and again?

Bullies don't stand down by being given what they want over and over.

Edited September 28, 2022 by magnkarl

[NoelVilla]

 

[Marka Ragnos]

6 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

...

Bullies don't stand down by being given what they want over and over.

 You think you're educating me on the concept of geopolitical bullying, I guess. OK, thanks, mate. No offense to you, but I've stood 100% with my country's decision to pump military aid into Ukraine of unprecedented historical proportions. And make no mistake my country's people will pay a price for that in untold ways. But I've supported it -- and I do. What I'm saying isn't peace at any cost. The cost has been high. I think Putin has had his arse kicked. He may be amenable to listening. I could be wrong, but I think his situation is beyond anything he expected.

[fruitvilla]

Marka and magnkarl ... here's my take. It is tough balancing today's losses, with past and future losses. We can measure these losses in terms of lives, freedom, economic wealth, culture, or some combination thereof. 

So ultimately, we are emphasizing our particular values here. 

If we use crime as a model, then restoration, restraint and rehabilitation are in order. First Russia needs to be restrained; on the other hand, it can't be wedged into a corner either. I don't think Russia can ever be brought to the table to help restore Ukraine. And we need to heed what happened to Germany after the first world war. 

The relationship between Russia and Ukraine is now gone decades if not centuries.

Ultimately Russia needs to fix itself, not easily done I agree. And here I don't mean the assassination of Putin; but get control of the corruption that took hold during the Soviet years.

[avfc1982am]

1 hour ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

 

This is really scummy from Russia imo. The lowest of the low. Initially they took thousands of children from Ukrainian mothers telling them the kids would have a holiday outside the war zone and be safe. They've basically stolen Ukrainian children. Bastards.

[ciggiesnbeer]

The Russian government is truly evil. I wonder how long before one of Russia's many victims around the world decides it has had enough of these scumbags and takes care of Putin one way or another (suicide bomber assassination etc).  Remember much of the world has a food crisis caused by Russia as well as Inflation and an Energy crisis, two of those are clearly problems created by Putin. Ironically the "west' IE: The USA, EU + South Korea, Japan are the countries who are most able to handle these crisis. The developing world isnt, they are getting hit hard. China is worst of all with its self created housing crisis in addition to the global economy they heavily rely on tanking because of Putin, they must be utterly sick of his antics.

Edited September 28, 2022 by ciggiesnbeer

[LondonLax]

There is no option for Putin to surrender or back down in any way. He’s bet the house and gone all in. Any sign of retreat from here, either via talks with the west or defeat on the battlefield will mean he gets the Ceausescu treatment back home. If loss of face means death for him how far will he go to ‘win’?

[magnkarl]

4 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said:

 You think you're educating me on the concept of geopolitical bullying, I guess. OK, thanks, mate. No offense to you, but I've stood 100% with my country's decision to pump military aid into Ukraine of unprecedented historical proportions. And make no mistake my country's people will pay a price for that in untold ways. But I've supported it -- and I do. What I'm saying isn't peace at any cost. The cost has been high. I think Putin has had his arse kicked. He may be amenable to listening. I could be wrong, but I think his situation is beyond anything he expected.

You still don’t get the point. It’s not for the west to decide what is going to happen. It’s up to the people Putin has butchered in his grand ambitions of restoring Alexander’s old borders. The way many in the West are talking (you included), it is ‘we’ that should be letting Russia come to the table.

Coming from a family who were pretty much decimated by an ethno-nationalist in the 1930-40s it infuriates me when people try to argue in any way to take Ukraine’s agency away. It is not you or I that decide what Ukraine does. The stated goal for Ukraine is to liberate all of its territory, not let Putin have half of it because some guy from Islington thinks war is bad no matter what you’re defending.

[desensitized43]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

There is no option for Putin to surrender or back down in any way. He’s bet the house and gone all in. Any sign of retreat from here, either via talks with the west or defeat on the battlefield will mean he gets the Ceausescu treatment back home. If loss of face means death for him how far will he go to ‘win’?

He’s already trying to manufacture a “win condition” with these fake referenda. The fact they’ve even done this is as close you’ll get to an admission they don’t think they can now defeat Ukraine conventionally and are now at a point where they feel they’re ready for this to end. That’ll require Ukraine give up those regions which is something I don’t think they’re prepared to do.

Traditionally, wars end once both sides don’t think they can achieve anymore on the battlefield. Russia looks like they’re there, but are Ukraine?

[avfc1982am]

 

9 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

You still don’t get the point. It’s not for the west to decide what is going to happen. It’s up to the people Putin has butchered in his grand ambitions of restoring Alexander’s old borders. The way many in the West are talking (you included), it is ‘we’ that should be letting Russia come to the table.

Coming from a family who were pretty much decimated by an ethno-nationalist in the 1930-40s it infuriates me when people try to argue in any way to take Ukraine’s agency away. It is not you or I that decide what Ukraine does. The stated goal for Ukraine is to liberate all of its territory, not let Putin have half of it because some guy from Islington thinks war is bad no matter what you’re defending.

Spot on. Ultimately Ukraine will be the ones that decide how long to keep fighting. If they have the will and the resources, then it is on them to decide when enough is enough. I personally cannot begin to imagine how my mindset would be if I was a Ukrainian bloke that had his family and home destroyed. You certainly wouldn't be paying any attention to the wishes of those that aren't treading the same path. 

 

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

 

[TheAuthority]

2 minutes ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

 

Didn't realize old people with 6th form views could get so much air play.