Delphinho123 Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, CVByrne said: A ceasefire will only be agreed if Ukraine agrees to cede Crimea and recognise the Donbas as a new country. Tbh, I think they should. Just give him it. It will save thousands of lives and Ukraine will lose a small part of land which they’ll probably fight over anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 18 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: It's spot on. While the west dither Putin becomes more and more emboldened, Whilst the west act all pious and shocked Putin drags everyone deeper into the mire. People say Hitler was different. Only the narrative was different and the scale of damage to the world is yet to be determined. He even has his own version of Mussolini in Lukaschenko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 3, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 3, 2022 A question on reporting. We're seeing lots of stories that suggest every Ukrainian man between 16 and 75 is a double hard mother****er with his hands on a rifle, a will to kill, and the desire to fight Russians until his very last breath. What of the twenty percent of Ukrainians that identify as Russian? Where are those people? What's happening with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted March 3, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 3, 2022 https://correctiv.org/en/latest-stories/2022/03/01/sanctions-tracker-live-monitoring-of-all-sanctions-against-russia/ Live sanctions tracker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 11 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I don't think that's true - for Russia, this is a reactive conflict - it's defensive not aggressive - they're not looking to take Ukraine as part of some sort of expansionism, they're looking to liberate it from a government that they see as persecuting it's Russian population. Now they might well be wrong and the response, invading Ukraine, might well be utterly insane - but I don't think conquest is what this is about - it's about paranoia and fear and the desire to be seen to remain strong and intact and important as a nation. He's a dangerous nutter, but I think the idea that he's a dangerous nutter hell bent on taking over Europe is wide of the mark. Ukraine can't win this war - they can only sacrifice themselves and take a lot of people with them. I think Ukraine is neither in NATO nor under Russian control. Putin has got in first. In a more peaceful way other states may flock to NATO. The balance has gone that in my humble opinion is the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) 26 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think there's probably a case at this point for encouraging Ukraine to stop resisting. Get Zelenskyy out of the country and have him govern in exile but prevent the need for more deaths (on both sides) - then let the sanctions and the financial war on the oligarchs take care of the rest. Ukraine isn't going to win a war, but tens of thousands of people will die - young men on both sides - when actually the only thing that's going to move this forward is the moment when the oligarch's decide to sacrifice Putin in order to maintain their status - the war on the ground is almost immaterial in terms of its effect on Putin, it's the paper war that will ultimately topple him. At this point do we ask the Ukrainians to give up the land in the short term in order to save lives while we rid ourselves of Putin then retake the land as part of a settlement? Is that better than tens of thousands of deaths? That’s an excellent point. I have thought a few times that aside from delaying the inevitable fighting Russia is pointless (but I completely understand why they do fight). Edited March 3, 2022 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 Its not just the government though mate. All the companies would start selling back to Russia too. I know people want any chance to slate Boris but this is hardly a stick to beat him with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Its not just the government though mate. All the companies would start selling back to Russia too. I know people want any chance to slate Boris but this is hardly a stick to beat him with. The lesson to be learned is that Russia is no longer a country we can trade and deal with. That's going to be a tough sell for the free market Tories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 Can somebody more intelligent tell me exactly how these sanctions will bite and how the Russian economy will be affected over the next few months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 3, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 3, 2022 11 minutes ago, Zatman said: He even has his own version of Mussolini in Lukaschenko Mussolini was in power a long time before Hitler, he wasn't installed as a puppet. The dynamic is totally different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bickster said: Mussolini was in power a long time before Hitler, he wasn't installed as a puppet. The dynamic is totally different Lukaschenko has been in power about 5 years before Putin though Think I read he came in on an anti Russian/Soviet agenda as well Edited March 3, 2022 by Zatman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 3, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 3, 2022 Just now, Zatman said: Lukaschenko has been in power about 5 years before Putin though You are indeed correct, I didn't realise he'd been there that long! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 3, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 3, 2022 Quote Russian Major General Andrei Sukhovetsky killed by Ukrainians in ‘major demotivator’ for invading army His death, if confirmed, would be ‘major demotivator’ for Putin’s troops, says head of investigative unit Andrei Sukhovetsky was the commanding general of the Russian 7th Airborne Division and a deputy commander of the 41st Combined Arms Army. Indie His death was confirmed by a local officers’ organization in the Krasnodar region in southern Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 29 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: We're seeing lots of stories that suggest every Ukrainian man between 16 and 75 is a double hard mother****er with his hands on a rifle, a will to kill, and the desire to fight Russians until his very last breath. Don't forget the standard cig in mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lichfield Dean Posted March 3, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 3, 2022 53 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think there's probably a case at this point for encouraging Ukraine to stop resisting. Get Zelenskyy out of the country and have him govern in exile but prevent the need for more deaths (on both sides) - then let the sanctions and the financial war on the oligarchs take care of the rest. Ukraine isn't going to win a war, but tens of thousands of people will die - young men on both sides - when actually the only thing that's going to move this forward is the moment when the oligarch's decide to sacrifice Putin in order to maintain their status - the war on the ground is almost immaterial in terms of its effect on Putin, it's the paper war that will ultimately topple him. At this point do we ask the Ukrainians to give up the land in the short term in order to save lives while we rid ourselves of Putin then retake the land as part of a settlement? Is that better than tens of thousands of deaths? But ... If we're to believe the motivation for this is NATO expansion eastwards, how would doing this resolve that? I still don't fully understand why they have invaded. Sometimes it's because of NATO, sometimes it's because of separatist regions that he wants to 'liberate', sometimes it's because of Ukraine's natural resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) I’d love to know how much of the response from the rest of the world was expected by Putin, and what was not. I can’t believe they assumed it all. Edited March 3, 2022 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted March 3, 2022 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted March 3, 2022 43 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I don't think that's true - for Russia, this is a reactive conflict - it's defensive not aggressive - they're not looking to take Ukraine as part of some sort of expansionism, they're looking to liberate it from a government that they see as persecuting it's Russian population. This is utter bollex. Sorry. I detest this interpretation immensely. It's along the same lines as those Stop the War eejits are promoting. The only element of defnsivenesss in Russia's (Putin's) actions is self protection of his ill gotten wealth and visciously enforced status and power. It's democracy and democratic yearnings amongst Russians that he is "defending" against, via brutal assault on a soveriegn, democratic neighbour. NATO has absolutely no aims or desires to attack or assault Russia (indeed as we are seeing). I mean, FFS. 4 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cizzler Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 53 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: No. He has a taste for conquest regardless of the human cost. He's not going to go into a NATO country. He's not gone insane, he's not going to invade the USA. They'd get absolutely battered. It's a terrible tragedy and a humanitarian disaster - but ultimately, we can't risk nuclear war on the sovereignty of Ukraine. I think they need to accept Putin's demands. The loss of innocent life is going to become even more depressing otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 6 minutes ago, Cizzler said: He's not going to go into a NATO country. He's not gone insane, he's not going to invade the USA. They'd get absolutely battered. It's a terrible tragedy and a humanitarian disaster - but ultimately, we can't risk nuclear war on the sovereignty of Ukraine. I think they need to accept Putin's demands. The loss of innocent life is going to become even more depressing otherwise. I can't see the Ukrainians surrendering anytime soon. But unfortunately I can also see Putin getting what he wants, how long this will take is anyone's guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 The west will not decide if or when the Ukrainians stop resisting, they will. Furthermore they will win because they can and will outlast Putin’s financial, political and military capacity to prosecute the war. 80,000 Ukrainian men have left safety in Poland to go home and fight, we must give them every means we can to defend their country for as long as they choose to. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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