Ron Saunders

[choffer]

Not sure I’d seen this video before. Happy times for those of us old enough to remember. 

 

[Follyfoot]

6 minutes ago, choffer said:

Not sure I’d seen this video before. Happy times for those of us old enough to remember. 

 

was driving to the Villa when I heard on the radio he had died, my youngest lad was one of the mascots against Leicester that day, just started to weep when I heard. McNaught and Chris Nicol were the old stars before the game with the mascots, all was very surreal  

[AvonVillain]

22 minutes ago, choffer said:

Christ, I wish people would use punctuation properly; or at all. Took me ages to figure that out:

Ron Saunders - "If I have to say why, you ain’t a villa fan."

[TRO]

On 27/03/2017 at 22:05, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I'm not sure if you've thought that sentence through TRO. We should respect the man's wishes no matter what they are within reason, no matter what mental state he's in.

Yeah, didn't word it very well......I meant it was up to us, to put things right.

[TRO]

He made a lasting football impression on me.....and I will never question, his Mantra.

We miss much of his philosophy, drive and resillience, in our modern team.....not sure if we will ever get it back.

I can only imagine, what Ron would make of this latest ensemble.

Edited January 11, 2023 by TRO

[Follyfoot]

26 minutes ago, TRO said:

He made a lasting football impression on me.....and I will never question, his Mantra.

We miss much of his philosophy, drive and resillience, in our modern team.....not sure if we will ever get it back.

I can only imagine, what Ron would make of this latest ensemble.

They would most certainly know what a sand dune looks like 

[blandy]

12 hours ago, TRO said:

He made a lasting football impression on me.....and I will never question, his Mantra.

Me, too. But, his mantra is obsolete. For example the Tony Morley bit about his house burnt down and Ron saying " you get paid to train" and not letting him sort out his dire situation that day - that's completely unacceptable in today's world, and rightly so. Society changes, people's ingrained standards of care and behaviour change and evolve. The game earns and is worth billions. Treating players in the way they used to be would be utterly counterproductive. The way the game is played, the laws and their implementation are totally different. Tactics, analysis, pitch quality, player speed, the ball, refereeing - totally different.  It's warm and comfy to look back, but those days and times are gone. Managerial styles from back then are obsolete. Playing styles too.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, blandy said:

Me, too. But, his mantra is obsolete. For example the Tony Morley bit about his house burnt down and Ron saying " you get paid to train" and not letting him sort out his dire situation that day - that's completely unacceptable in today's world, and rightly so. Society changes, people's ingrained standards of care and behaviour change and evolve. The game earns and is worth billions. Treating players in the way they used to be would be utterly counterproductive. The way the game is played, the laws and their implementation are totally different. Tactics, analysis, pitch quality, player speed, the ball, refereeing - totally different.  It's warm and comfy to look back, but those days and times are gone. Managerial styles from back then are obsolete. Playing styles too.

you are right, with all the things you say there, but you are missing the most important point....and your opening gambit, is misleading, because running and workrate, is still highly sought.

Its the outcome Pete, that hasn't changed......desire, combativeness, hard running, passion, will to win, attitude.....are all alive today, as they were years and years ago.

The style of football has changed, but while we speak, certain things like the centre forward are drifting back.....football morphs in trends and old methods can and do return.

Sure, its hard to motivate millionaire footballers, but the top teams have managed to do it....They just find a different process, but the end product, is much the same.

during the recent game between Newcastle and Leicester, you could clearly see it.....even Murphy coming on in the 88th minute, clapping his hands and rallying the troops, 2-0 up and still closing down and competing, sure they have the odd slip up, like anybody...but that was only the second defeat this season.

I accept the changes you mention, but you don't seem to see the ones that remain the same.

The method of how you motivate a team, is NOT on trial here.......its the fact, that you do in the first place.....and only the outcome can confirm that.

Andy Gray and Peter Withe, were also 2 examples of players, who just didn't know when they was beat.....their only thought was winning. Thats a mentality, we need to find, its missing in our team.

Rons main Mantra was hard running and a huge work ethic, discipline and drive.....its very much alive and kicking....just not in our team, every game.

Edited January 12, 2023 by TRO

[The Fun Factory]

4 hours ago, blandy said:

Me, too. But, his mantra is obsolete. For example the Tony Morley bit about his house burnt down and Ron saying " you get paid to train" and not letting him sort out his dire situation that day - that's completely unacceptable in today's world, and rightly so. Society changes, people's ingrained standards of care and behaviour change and evolve. The game earns and is worth billions. Treating players in the way they used to be would be utterly counterproductive. The way the game is played, the laws and their implementation are totally different. Tactics, analysis, pitch quality, player speed, the ball, refereeing - totally different.  It's warm and comfy to look back, but those days and times are gone. Managerial styles from back then are obsolete. Playing styles too.

Yes to all of that but still he had a winners mentality. I think it is sometimes just too cosy at Villa for players to coast and pick up the bunce.  Thought Gerrard would bring that in but he was limited tactically and the players stopped listening to him. Hope Emery is the right balance this time.

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

Yes to all of that but still he had a winners mentality. I think it is sometimes just too cosy at Villa for players to coast and pick up the bunce.  Thought Gerrard would bring that in but he was limited tactically and the players stopped listening to him. Hope Emery is the right balance this time.

Ron created That, because he had it......There is no time, related relevance to that....its intrinsic.

9 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

Yes to all of that but still he had a winners mentality. I think it is sometimes just too cosy at Villa for players to coast and pick up the bunce.  Thought Gerrard would bring that in but he was limited tactically and the players stopped listening to him. Hope Emery is the right balance this time.

 

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

Yes to all of that but still he had a winners mentality. I think it is sometimes just too cosy at Villa for players to coast and pick up the bunce.  Thought Gerrard would bring that in but he was limited tactically and the players stopped listening to him. Hope Emery is the right balance this time.

I thought, he would bring it in too, maybe he tried and failed.

I remember Dean saying, they have moved the start time for training from 10.00.am to 12 noon....because too many were on their X boxes , until the early hours......what an indictment...........so he had to wrestle with it too.I thought SG would change that, but not so.

Its been in this group for some time.....and its going to take some shifting.

We need some rigorous hard training to drive the beejaysus, out of them.

[onmeedson]

Can we win the premiership with this new style of playing and new style of management, letting them play on their play station's all night.

[OutByEaster?]

8 hours ago, TRO said:

We need some rigorous hard training to drive the beejaysus, out of them.

Mentally and in terms of his desire to win, Ron had something special and it'd be really interesting to see if he could transfer that to the modern game.

Physically though, today's Villa squad would run the legs off Ron's side - modern footballers are so much fitter, they're faster, they put in greater distances, they're physically freakish. It's one of those sad things where some of the more talented players of the past wouldn't have succeeded in the modern game because genetically they didn't have the advantages that modern footballer-athletes have.

I'm not sure whether Ron had the flexibility to cosy up to modern footballers, it's probably part of his strength as a manager in those days that he didn't, his strength was his inflexibility to an extent, the unwavering steel of his personality. The game has changed, as has the world, for the better in most respects. Modern players would have him out of the job in a month.

[Follyfoot]

2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Mentally and in terms of his desire to win, Ron had something special and it'd be really interesting to see if he could transfer that to the modern game.

Physically though, today's Villa squad would run the legs off Ron's side - modern footballers are so much fitter, they're faster, they put in greater distances, they're physically freakish. It's one of those sad things where some of the more talented players of the past wouldn't have succeeded in the modern game because genetically they didn't have the advantages that modern footballer-athletes have.

I'm not sure whether Ron had the flexibility to cosy up to modern footballers, it's probably part of his strength as a manager in those days that he didn't, his strength was his inflexibility to an extent, the unwavering steel of his personality. The game has changed, as has the world, for the better in most respects. Modern players would have him out of the job in a month.

Would they? would you bet against him

[OutByEaster?]

3 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

Would they? would you bet against him

Absolutely. I know it can be difficult to compare different times and different teams, but modern footballers are freakishly fit, they aren't good footballers who can run, they're athletes with genetic advantages that can play football. I'd bet the running numbers for our U23's are a match for Ron's side. There are very, very good players from the 70's and early 80's that simply wouldn't have had the genetic ability to play in the modern game. 

[mattyvilla]

7 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Absolutely. I know it can be difficult to compare different times and different teams, but modern footballers are freakishly fit, they aren't good footballers who can run, they're athletes with genetic advantages that can play football. I'd bet the running numbers for our U23's are a match for Ron's side. There are very, very good players from the 70's and early 80's that simply wouldn't have had the genetic ability to play in the modern game. 

you are correct due to modern techniques , however Allan Evans would eat the modern striker

[TRO]

18 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

Mentally and in terms of his desire to win, Ron had something special and it'd be really interesting to see if he could transfer that to the modern game.

Physically though, today's Villa squad would run the legs off Ron's side - modern footballers are so much fitter, they're faster, they put in greater distances, they're physically freakish. It's one of those sad things where some of the more talented players of the past wouldn't have succeeded in the modern game because genetically they didn't have the advantages that modern footballer-athletes have.

I'm not sure whether Ron had the flexibility to cosy up to modern footballers, it's probably part of his strength as a manager in those days that he didn't, his strength was his inflexibility to an extent, the unwavering steel of his personality. The game has changed, as has the world, for the better in most respects. Modern players would have him out of the job in a month.

I don't disagree.....but you can only compare, teams with their contempories of the day.....you can't compare the fitness of today with the past.....but everything is relative.

• Ron Saunders team in their era was renowned for work rate, desire, agression and a hunger to compete
• Our current team, compared to our current contempories, is not, renowned for that....and has an inconsistent record for competing.

Ron, like Cloughie, Revie, and Fergie.....would adapt to the modern surroundings, that does not mean, a modern version of his intrinsic self, is not able to be sought....He would comply with todays culture, but staying with his own, inner beliefs too.....Look at the top sides today, sure they have great talent, but the don't stop running, and their intensity is clear as daylight.

There are modern managers who are demanding, and forthright, who don't suffer fools gladly, and make it their business, to be surrounded by winners, to create that winning culture.....you don't have to be a sergeant major, to do that...Ron, was Ron, and he made it work.....but we still had the media darlings in Liverpool and Ipswich, who were slightly less leaning to our robust style.

This notion, that the essential ingredients of aggression, desire, will, determination, belief.....is of the past, is folly......its still there, just dressed up a bit different to negate/manipulate the modern rules.

I will grant you, in eyes of losers, it is a thing of the past.... for winners, it's still alive and kicking.

No, its not possible to drift around a pitch, like Giles & Bremner, dishing out the softners, or Hunter, Smith,and Harris biting your legs......but look closely, there are still those that let you know, they are there like Rodri....its more sneaky and stealthy, today, but its still there, and always will be, where there is a competitive game.

I think we are confusing certain elements of the debate, and arguing against different things.

Edited January 13, 2023 by TRO

[PaulC]

19 hours ago, mattyvilla said:

you are correct due to modern techniques , however Allan Evans would eat the modern striker

Yes what a great player for the club he was. Always remember that winner at St Andrews in the 80/81 season. Remember him coming on as a forward against Barcelona, he really roughed them up and we drew the game. 

As far as Ron is concerned he had total control over everything. i think modern players would not be able to handle his style of management and he would loose the dressing room quickly. Thats not a slight on him, modern players are too soft. 

[DaveAV1]

19 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

Mentally and in terms of his desire to win, Ron had something special and it'd be really interesting to see if he could transfer that to the modern game.

Physically though, today's Villa squad would run the legs off Ron's side - modern footballers are so much fitter, they're faster, they put in greater distances, they're physically freakish. It's one of those sad things where some of the more talented players of the past wouldn't have succeeded in the modern game because genetically they didn't have the advantages that modern footballer-athletes have.

I'm not sure whether Ron had the flexibility to cosy up to modern footballers, it's probably part of his strength as a manager in those days that he didn't, his strength was his inflexibility to an extent, the unwavering steel of his personality. The game has changed, as has the world, for the better in most respects. Modern players would have him out of the job in a month.

Whilst I don’t disagree with the points you make, the point is Ron managed when he managed and with players of that era. People say the same about Clough and Shankly. If any of those managers had been born 40/50 years later they would have managed what they had in front of them, with all the modern physical and mental attributes we have now. 

I saw an interview with Saunders talking about man management. To say he wasn’t flexible isn’t true. He recognised that players are all different both on and off the pitch and treated them accordingly. The likes of Brian Little needed an arm round him but he said if he hadn’t given Tony Morley a bollocking by 10.30 Tony would have thought he’d fallen out with him. 

The world has changed, managers have changed. You can’t write off managers or for that matter players achievements, just because it was in the past. They were modern then compared with 40/50 years previously.
 

Genetics may have made some advances but I think the bigger advances are in terms of modern training, equipment, diet and medical technology. All the managers from back in the 70s, 80s or whenever, would definitely have used anything they could to gain an advantage and would have welcomed those things with open arms. Only dinosaurs like Steve Bruce would ignore these things. Although if an automatic digital sock pulling up app was available then perhaps he’d be all over that. 

[ChesterDad]

On 11/01/2023 at 18:56, TRO said:

He made a lasting football impression on me.....and I will never question, his Mantra.

We miss much of his philosophy, drive and resillience, in our modern team.....not sure if we will ever get it back.

I can only imagine, what Ron would make of this latest ensemble.

I’m a 110% sure what he would think