Tom13 Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 6 hours ago, DCJonah said: It was but Roy was so bad and frustrating that he seemed so different. Don't forget we had Allardyce inbetween. Would much rather him over Southgate (if the corruption hadn't happened anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted March 24 VT Supporter Share Posted March 24 2 hours ago, R.Bear said: You can say that about every England team/manager in history. England squads have failed spectacularly in past years. Group stage exits, limp knockout exits. Southgate hasnt won anything obviously but his record in tournaments is light years ahead of everyone outside of Alf Ramsey. People overrate this England squad. The defence and goalkeeper are ok, that's it. For all the talk about the attacking options and world class players England have, yeah so do other teams, and more of them. How about Bellingham and kane, saka grealish, foden, rice. These players aren't ordinary by any stretch of the imagination and would get in most of the top teams. Southgate has performed well because of the squad not because he has a system 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted March 24 VT Supporter Share Posted March 24 3 hours ago, R.Bear said: You can say that about every England team/manager in history. England squads have failed spectacularly in past years. Group stage exits, limp knockout exits. Southgate hasnt won anything obviously but his record in tournaments is light years ahead of everyone outside of Alf Ramsey. People overrate this England squad. The defence and goalkeeper are ok, that's it. For all the talk about the attacking options and world class players England have, yeah so do other teams, and more of them. How about Bellingham and kane, saka grealish, foden, rice. These players aren't ordinary by any stretch of the imagination and would get in most of the top teams. Southgate has performed well because of the squad not because he has a system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 4 hours ago, R.Bear said: People overrate this England squad. The defence and goalkeeper are ok, that's it. For all the talk about the attacking options and world class players England have, yeah so do other teams, and more of them. This has got to be a wind up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Bear Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 31 minutes ago, ThunderPower_14 said: This has got to be a wind up. As I've already explained, it's a misunderstanding. I just worded my post poorly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 Hopefully we hammer Belgium so it gives the Utd hierarchy a massive lob on to sign him up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 I think the highest profile Prem job he would realistically get is West Ham if Moyes leaves. Their owners seem to like UK managers that aren't exactly known for their innovative football, see Bruce, McLeish, Allardyce, and Moyes, they also seem the kind of owners that would like him just by virtue of him having managed England in his last job. Despite rumours I don't think any of the so called top six would go anywhere near him, nor us, Newcastle, or Brighton, maybe Wolves if O'Neill was to leave, but I don't think that's on the cards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 England have one of the best squads but one of the weakest managers in the tournament. In a knockout game with weaker players I would fancy Nagelsmann, Spalletti(England beat Italy but was only Spalletti 2nd game), Tedesco or even Koeman to outsmart him 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, Zatman said: England have one of the best squads but one of the weakest managers in the tournament. This is the long and the short of it. We've got one of the best squads we've ever had. If we had a better defence it would be comfortably the best squad we've ever had. But we're not going to win anything. That being said I don't think Southgate has done a BAD job. He's clearly done well. I think he's done a huge amount off the pitch in terms of team unity, perception of the team in the public, and managing tournament football. But he is missing the tactical knowledge to take that extra step and actually win a trophy. In a way I compare him to MON at Villa. Undoubtedly did a good job, but fell short at the final step where a better manager would have succeeded 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 The comparison I always use is this. If hypothetically after the semi finals of Euro 2020 you swapped the managers of the finalists, so Mancini managed England in the final and Southgate managed Italy, who do you think would have won that final? I think you'd be hard pushed to find anyone suggesting Italy would have still won 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 57 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: This is the long and the short of it. We've got one of the best squads we've ever had. If we had a better defence it would be comfortably the best squad we've ever had. But we're not going to win anything. That being said I don't think Southgate has done a BAD job. He's clearly done well. I think he's done a huge amount off the pitch in terms of team unity, perception of the team in the public, and managing tournament football. But he is missing the tactical knowledge to take that extra step and actually win a trophy. In a way I compare him to MON at Villa. Undoubtedly did a good job, but fell short at the final step where a better manager would have succeeded He's done well in a way... but it's so, so limited. Looking back over, these are results against sides that are decent/good (IMO obv): Drew with Spain 2-2 Lost to Germany 1-0 Lost to France 3-2 Drew with Germany 0-0 Drew with Brazil 0-0 Beat Netherlands 1-0 Drew with Italy 1-1 Lost to Belgium 1-0 Drew with Colombia 1-1 (won on pens) Lost to Croatia 2-1 Lost to Belgium 2-0 Lost to Spain 2-1 Drew with Croatia 0-0 Beat Spain 3-2 Beat Croatia 2-1 Lost to Netherlands 3-1 Beat Belgium 2-1 Lost to Belgium 2-0 Beat Croatia 1-0 Beat Germany 2-0 Drew with Italy 1-1 (lost on pens) Drew with Germany 1-1 Drew with Italy 0-0 Lost to Italy 1-0 Drew with Germany 3-3 Lost to France 2-1 Beat Italy 2-1 Beat Italy 3-1 Lost to Brazil 1-0 There's some obvious subjectivity there - I've included Colombia as they're decent, but excluded, say, Poland who are probably on a similar level. But overall, it paints a picture. There are 29 games listed there, and we've won 8 under Southgate. That's a win record of about 27% against "good" national teams - and that's including 2 wins against Croatia who are fine but... yeah. 1 in 4 against good teams and with the best chance of winning a major tournament that England has arguably ever seen not taken (granted, lottery of penalties). As you say, it's not a BAD job but it's hardly the sign of a fantastic manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 6 minutes ago, bobzy said: He's done well in a way... but it's so, so limited. Looking back over, these are results against sides that are decent/good (IMO obv): Drew with Spain 2-2 Lost to Germany 1-0 Lost to France 3-2 Drew with Germany 0-0 Drew with Brazil 0-0 Beat Netherlands 1-0 Drew with Italy 1-1 Lost to Belgium 1-0 Drew with Colombia 1-1 (won on pens) Lost to Croatia 2-1 Lost to Belgium 2-0 Lost to Spain 2-1 Drew with Croatia 0-0 Beat Spain 3-2 Beat Croatia 2-1 Lost to Netherlands 3-1 Beat Belgium 2-1 Lost to Belgium 2-0 Beat Croatia 1-0 Beat Germany 2-0 Drew with Italy 1-1 (lost on pens) Drew with Germany 1-1 Drew with Italy 0-0 Lost to Italy 1-0 Drew with Germany 3-3 Lost to France 2-1 Beat Italy 2-1 Beat Italy 3-1 Lost to Brazil 1-0 There's some obvious subjectivity there - I've included Colombia as they're decent, but excluded, say, Poland who are probably on a similar level. But overall, it paints a picture. There are 29 games listed there, and we've won 8 under Southgate. That's a win record of about 27% against "good" national teams - and that's including 2 wins against Croatia who are fine but... yeah. 1 in 4 against good teams and with the best chance of winning a major tournament that England has arguably ever seen not taken (granted, lottery of penalties). As you say, it's not a BAD job but it's hardly the sign of a fantastic manager. Yeah I totally agree. It's not bad because he's done better in tournaments than almost any England manager before him. But he's been lucky that he's had an unbelievable squad in that time. People are so black and white with it. We got to a final therefore he MUST have done an amazing job. Or we haven't won anything with this squad so he MUST have done a terrible job. As usual the reality is in the middle. Ultimately he's done well, but he hasn't gotten the most out of this squad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post StefanAVFC Posted March 25 Popular Post Share Posted March 25 He's also had insane luck in tournaments in terms of match ups. The only really good win under him was Germany in the Euros. Other than that we've lost to any team on our level or better in major tournaments. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 He's done horrifically badly. It's hard to imagine having done worse with any other manager, or no manager at all. I doubt he would get a Premier League job in the unlikely event he leaves England this century, but it would be hilarious if he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 38 minutes ago, fightoffyour said: He's done horrifically badly. It's hard to imagine having done worse with any other manager, or no manager at all. I doubt he would get a Premier League job in the unlikely event he leaves England this century, but it would be hilarious if he did. Well it isn't, I lived through many many examples of us doing worse under other managers. If people want to say he's a bad, tactically limited manager that's fine, but the historical record is what it is. He's done better than every single other England manager in my lifetime. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 My 2014 Southgate thought On 13/11/2014 at 14:05, useless said: I'd file Southgate alongside managers like Robson, Ince, Mcleish and Pearce. Can't say useless feel different now, once Southgate leaves the safety cocoon of the England job, and doesn't have the comfort of having one of the best England squads ever to choose from, mostly poor opposition to play, and also managing England in an era where most of the other big nations aren't at their best, his career will go the same way, one remembers people rating Chris Coleman when he was Wales manager, but it was predictable what would happen when he went back to club football, something similar will probably happen with Garath 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWARLEY2 Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 5 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Well it isn't, I lived through many many examples of us doing worse under other managers. If people want to say he's a bad, tactically limited manager that's fine, but the historical record is what it is. He's done better than every single other England manager in my lifetime. Back in the old days we were rightly lambasted for agricultural football. Which was based on the fact that we were miles behind other countries on a technical level . When England had a complete overhaul of the coaching system i think 15 or 20 years ag0 and St George Park was built , we started to close that technical gap to the point that you could rightly say that players like Saka TTA Stones Kane and Foden are the technical equals of any of the best players from other countries. For their clubs they play attacking controlling football with great movement . They then come away with England to find a risk adverse 433 system that seems to have been in place for the last 8 years . Coached by Steve Holland for the last 8 years. No input of new ideas and new tactics. No fresh impetus. There has been no success under Southgate because we don't have a manager who can get the best out of his set of technically gifted players. Its like getting the best formula 1 car and then putting wet tyres on it in the dry . No chance of being successful whatsoever no matter how talented the driver is or how good the engine and chassis are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJCB Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said: He's also had insane luck in tournaments in terms of match ups. The only really good win under him was Germany in the Euros. Other than that we've lost to any team on our level or better in major tournaments. Worth noting we also had effectively a home advantage in basically every game of the Euros. He’s done ok but he’s also had the best possible conditions in which to be England manager: a fantastic squad, lucky tournament match ups; a tournament effectively hosted in England Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said: He's also had insane luck in tournaments in terms of match ups. The only really good win under him was Germany in the Euros. Other than that we've lost to any team on our level or better in major tournaments. It's mental that that's probably the only knockout game we've won against properly good opposition for about 40 years. And they weren't even that good at that point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Even Croatia in the semis was a lucky draw, and he screwed it up by going 1-0 up and sitting back, exactly the same as the Italy final, and even Denmark semi. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts