Gareth Southgate

[villa4europe]

3 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

As much as @HanoiVillan wants to be positive about him this is only going to end one way. He doesn't have the nouse or courage to win a tournament for England so he will finish a failure. If he does manage to win Euro 24, many of us who see through him will forever argue that it was only because of the amount of talent England is currently blessed with. (which is a lot)

to be fair to Hanoi last nights result is a good one and by all accounts the 2nd half performance was good, we've again qualified with ease from a group that was labelled as "tricky"

but you're also right, the belief has gone, we all know we will do absolutely **** all next summer bar get an easy draw and get to the QFs, agree that what england have achieved is in spite of him, its a mixture of great draws and great players getting him out of the shit, so even when we do get good results it still all feels so futile

said last night in the match thread for me he's leaving england more or less where he found them, yes we have better players in this squad but in terms of happiness and enjoyment we're back in the gutter

[VillaChris]

14 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

It's not going to be a popular comment but that was an excellent performance, especially in the second half, and when people say he should 'take the handbrake off' I don't know how it could go any better than that. 

That was a really good watch and a really good win.

That's the thing. The claim everything is toxic behind the scenes and in the stands and it's exactly like the last days of Steve Bruce here really dosen't tally with what we saw once it went to 1-1. Or generally the results in last 18 months.

[VillaChris]

3 hours ago, villa4europe said:

to be fair to Hanoi last nights result is a good one and by all accounts the 2nd half performance was good, we've again qualified with ease from a group that was labelled as "tricky"

but you're also right, the belief has gone, we all know we will do absolutely **** all next summer bar get an easy draw and get to the QFs, agree that what england have achieved is in spite of him, its a mixture of great draws and great players getting him out of the shit, so even when we do get good results it still all feels so futile

said last night in the match thread for me he's leaving england more or less where he found them, yes we have better players in this squad but in terms of happiness and enjoyment we're back in the gutter

England will make the Euros final again next summer. There I've said it.

Who knows how they'll do on the day if it''s a France or Portugal on the day which is opposition where you need to be flexible and switch things mid game (which Southgate really isn't very good at based on previous big games).

England to me is a top 3 contender so anything but another final appearance is failure. I agree the standard needs to be set that high and he has no chance of staying if a Belgium or Germany knock England out in last 16 or Quarters as England are further ahead than those two currently.

To me it's actually following a similar trajectory to what Germany did when Neuer, Kroos, Ozil, Lahm, Schweinstiger all roughly came through in the same period. Had a renaissance tournament to get most back onside in 2006 (England 2018) then reached the Euros final in 2008 and lost narrowly. Then expectations were Germany would strongly challenge for 2010 World cup but again lost narrowly to elite team in Spain 1-0 (so similar to England with France).

Only difference is Germany then underwhelmed and lost to Italy in 2012 when Balotelli had the greatest game of his career. They kept faith with Low and won the 2014 World cup and with that squad you knew a trophy was coming sooner or later but they need four attempts to win.

So England might still be 3-4 years off but you just can't keep waiting as we saw in the 2000s.

[Marka Ragnos]

8 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

I think you're being too analytical.

Well, I would hope.  
 

I really enjoyed your post, and definitely agree with some of it, although, of course, none of us have a crystal ball. I stand by my assertion that Southgate is a “mirror.”

[AvfcRigo82]

5 hours ago, villa4europe said:

but you're also right, the belief has gone, we all know we will do absolutely **** all next summer bar get an easy draw and get to the QFs, agree that what england have achieved is in spite of him, its a mixture of great draws and great players getting him out of the shit, so even when we do get good results it still all feels so futile

And yet we will also have to endure weeks of constantly hearing "football's ******** coming home" bollocks aswell.

[foreveryoung]

16 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Well, I would hope.  
 

I really enjoyed your post, and definitely agree with some of it, although, of course, none of us have a crystal ball. I stand by my assertion that Southgate is a “mirror.”

I think proof is in the pudding. If we still had Gerrard, would you have Southgate manage our club, I think the defining answer would be no.

Would you have Clarke at Scotland manage our club after Gerrard, I'd certainly consider it.

Has he made the squad better since the loss to Italy I can't see it, apart from Bellingham's input

Will his loyalty to certain players be detrimental to our success, I would say yes, like letting Saka take that pen.

For me, with the quality of players we have, an while there are no classic Brazils, Germany's, Argentina's or Spains in the world, this should be the easiest time to win a tournament, problem being, even if I agreed Southgate has done a good job with the team, one thing he isn't unfortunately is a winner!

[MrBlack]

16 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

It's not going to be a popular comment but that was an excellent performance, especially in the second half, and when people say he should 'take the handbrake off' I don't know how it could go any better than that. 

That was a really good watch and a really good win.

It was a good game and although we went behind we were dominating and showed resilience to come back. 

Not that any of that is on Southgate really. It was thanks to the one man wonder show from Bellingham.

The issue is that will give him the belief that his tactics work and he'll blindly stick to them. So when we're in a semi final, playing someone better than a faded Italy,  and they've taken the lead, he'll do nothing. The confidence will sap from the players when Bellingham can't do it on his own. And we'll lose having tried nothing to turn around the game. 

[rodders0223]

16 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

I don't want us to win anything under this absolute rocket polisher.

I'd take any win in a major as an England fan. With Henderson in the middle of the park and Rishi as manager. I really would.

But under Gareth it is never ever going to happen.  Cut to the Euros and another fading super power in the quarters or semis that we should just blitz off the park and cut to Southgate tightening it up, playing it safe, sitting on his hands, not risking a sub, not changing tact when the wind shifts against us. Just dour Gary reverting back to type, the shitbag.

 

 

[villan95]

Good result last night although worth bearing in mind Italy are a lot weaker than they were. Southgate generally does do par for the course but the problem is he doesn't win the matches that really matter, those tight ones where you need that tactical edge, like the WC semi v Croatia or the Euro Final v Italy. France was difficult I'll give him that but we still had a very good chance especially with how France performed on the day.

On results alone you could probably just about give him a pass but it's those big matches where he should be earning his money to give us an edge and he just doesn't. If we're serious about winning something we need a better manager, unless by some chance we get seriously lucky with another draw.

On top of that his comments/opinions just wind me up, he ties himself in knots with his hypocrisy and double standards on player selection.

I'm resigned to the fact he will be manager at Euro 2024 and I hope England win but I find it hard to have any confidence they will based on the previous 3 tournaments under Southgate. Anything less than a trophy at the next tournament really should spell the end.

[mikeyp102]

13 hours ago, villa4europe said:

 

said last night in the match thread for me he's leaving england more or less where he found them, yes we have better players in this squad but in terms of happiness and enjoyment we're back in the gutter

Can’t agree with that, he’s an idiot and tactically naive, but one thing he has done well is gel the players. 

[MWARLEY2]

35 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said:

Can’t agree with that, he’s an idiot and tactically naive, but one thing he has done well is gel the players. 

Yeah. But that would have happened anyway. The old days of cliques are long gone. Social media has brought everyone together.  The world is one of inclusion rather than exclusion. They all know one another anyway. Socials friendship groups.  If u are a tnuc you get called out these days. 

 

[MWARLEY2]

3 hours ago, villan95 said:

Good result last night although worth bearing in mind Italy are a lot weaker than they were. Southgate generally does do par for the course but the problem is he doesn't win the matches that really matter, those tight ones where you need that tactical edge, like the WC semi v Croatia or the Euro Final v Italy. France was difficult I'll give him that but we still had a very good chance especially with how France performed on the day.

On results alone you could probably just about give him a pass but it's those big matches where he should be earning his money to give us an edge and he just doesn't. If we're serious about winning something we need a better manager, unless by some chance we get seriously lucky with another draw.

On top of that his comments/opinions just wind me up, he ties himself in knots with his hypocrisy and double standards on player selection.

I'm resigned to the fact he will be manager at Euro 2024 and I hope England win but I find it hard to have any confidence they will based on the previous 3 tournaments under Southgate. Anything less than a trophy at the next tournament really should spell the end.

Exactly.  I wouldnt care if we fluked cheated and got lucky in a run to the final as long as when it mattered we were set up to go for it. But unfortunately in a final as we found an early goal meant he tried to play more negative and didnt take the bull by the horns and hammer home the advantage. 

 

 

[foreveryoung]

The Italy final was a absolute give away by Southgate, he properly got away with that by the media, for me it was worse than his penalty miss. Only needed to bring on some pace to stop a 37 tear old Chellini from running the show. But unstead he thought he could lock it up for 70 minutes, bringing on Grealish at 80 when it was as good as over.

[villa4europe]

9 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

The Italy final was a absolute give away by Southgate, he properly got away with that by the media, for me it was worse than his penalty miss. Only needed to bring on some pace to stop a 37 tear old Chellini from running the show. But unstead he thought he could lock it up for 70 minutes, bringing on Grealish at 80 when it was as good as over.

starting mason mount on the right wing for the first time in his life and then being too stubborn to sub him off early when it blatantly wasnt working

[HanoiVillan]

11 hours ago, MWARLEY2 said:

Yeah. But that would have happened anyway. The old days of cliques are long gone. Social media has brought everyone together.  The world is one of inclusion rather than exclusion. They all know one another anyway. Socials friendship groups.  If u are a tnuc you get called out these days. 

They all knew each other in the 2000s as well. I find this take baffling to be honest, like the one thing he very very clearly did succeed in doing was getting players enthused about going to camp and having a better team spirit when they got there. I can't see any reason to believe it would have magically happened anyway absent any human intervention in processes. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by HanoiVillan

[Davkaus]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

They all knew each other in the 2000s as well. I find this take baffling to be honest, like the one thing he very very clearly did succeed in doing was getting players enthused about going to camp and having a better team spirit when they got there. I can't see any reason to believe it would have magically happened anyway absent any human intervention in processes. 

He definitely deserves some credit for prioritising that kind of cultural change, though I'm unsure how much was really down to him - I think the other significant change was the end of the Fergie/Wenger/Mourinho era of genuine hostility between the players at a club level. No amount of sitting around the national team campfire holding hands and singing kumbaya was undoing the hostile culture driven by the club managers with the previous generation of players, IMO.

[VillaChris]

12 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

The Italy final was a absolute give away by Southgate, he properly got away with that by the media, for me it was worse than his penalty miss. Only needed to bring on some pace to stop a 37 tear old Chellini from running the show. But unstead he thought he could lock it up for 70 minutes, bringing on Grealish at 80 when it was as good as over.

He didn't react either when they took off Immobile and move Chiesa as a false 9 CF, that's his major weakness and we'll see if he reacts to what opposition do next summer.

It's interesting the narrative that seems to be written that Italy were some terrible team in that euros (given they haven't qualified for the World cup since). To get to the final they beat Belgium and Spain back to back so it all clicked for them in tournaments as can happen for teams. I actually think England would've beaten Spain if that had been the final but there's always something about Italy having the edge over England in major tournaments, we'll see if they meet next summer.

[villa4europe]

2 hours ago, VillaChris said:

He didn't react either when they took off Immobile and move Chiesa as a false 9 CF, that's his major weakness and we'll see if he reacts to what opposition do next summer.

It's interesting the narrative that seems to be written that Italy were some terrible team in that euros (given they haven't qualified for the World cup since). To get to the final they beat Belgium and Spain back to back so it all clicked for them in tournaments as can happen for teams. I actually think England would've beaten Spain if that had been the final but there's always something about Italy having the edge over England in major tournaments, we'll see if they meet next summer.

From my memory they were comfortabley the best team in the tournament and until he got injured their LB was the best player

[AvfcRigo82]

22 hours ago, villan95 said:

On top of that his comments/opinions just wind me up, he ties himself in knots with his hypocrisy and double standards

He would give Sunak a run for his money.

[villan95]

35 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

He would give Sunak a run for his money.

2024 will bring a new England manager and new government hopefully!