Steve Bruce

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I'm sure it was tongue in cheek when @JE- asked me if I was Steve Bruce's son, but it does touch on a wider problem. 

I have been fairly critical of Bruce over the last couple of months. Maybe not foaming at the mouth, off with his head critical but I've certainly questioned his decision making, the lack of a clear and defined plan, the lack of consistency and the loss of confidence that is allied to that. 

After the defeat to Barnsley I said that he needs to turn it around and he needs to do it now. I'm glad that he has, why wouldn't I be? Why wouldn't that soften my opinion of him? And like a flash, I'm a Bruce apologist.

There's a difference between being fickle and an evidence based change of opinion. Not that my opinion has changed all that much, we were dreadful during that run, there was no clear and defined plan and I was indeed worried that we would sink even further. However, he has dispelled one fear at least - that he wouldn't be able to stop the rot. Three wins on the bounce, regardless of the opposition, will do that. Not only that but there has been a marked improvement in the performances, they are much more akin to those shown earlier in his reign only this time we seem to have a midfield to go with it. 

The next two games are a big test. If we can win one of them fantastic, both and I will be absolutely buzzing for next season already. A couple of points would do. As long as they continue to show something even in defeat then I might just jump back off the fence. 

Aside - I was at all three wins. Watching your team win games of football is bound to put a spring in your step. If it doesn't, football probably isn't for you. IMO. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[TRO]

10 hours ago, terrytini said:

The reasons you give are all possibly valid, but you glaringly omit to accept that the Manager maybe been getting his approach wrong !!

Do you not even accept it's possible ? Surely it has at least as much merit as the other reasons ?

Take Lansbury. For Forest, makes forward runs. Debut for us, ditto. Then, they abruptly stop. Now, they are back. Ah but Jedi is back you say - in which case you'd be accepting it was under orders that Lansbury was wasted whilst Jefi was out ?!

As a whole, we sat deeper and deeper, throughout late December until towards the end of February,  then, as if by magic, we get bodies moving forward.

Is that gelling or orders?

Yes, it could be the things you've said, but it's odd you left out another possibility, one seen by many others and backed up by team selections like Hutton Elphick and Taylor against Ipswich who were only belatedly subbed for Adomah, Green and Bacuna, who, surprise surprise, were ALL selected to start in the game that stopped our losing run against Derby !!!!!

If I may be so bold I would venture to suggest you are almost as dogmatic in your refusal to countenance Bruce maybe got too defensive as others are in their dislike of him !

I think the ' problems' caused by new talent are/were as much an issue as the players so called 'poor characters'.... ( i.e, not very real at all) ..if the characters were poor where did three on the bounce come from !!

And those suggestions of a curse ? Or of players getting a big pay packet then switching off ?

Bruce deserved credit for a great opening run, and for a great three game run this last week.

And should we prosper he will deserve credit for that too.

And he just as surely deserves to carry at least a good chunk of the blame for what happened in between, and which cost us a play off shot.

Terry.....I am certainly not attempting to defend Steve Bruce unconditionally and for sure he will make mistakes with the vicissitudes he has to deal with.....but I do believe those were the main reasons I mentioned.

Where we differ Terry is....... those players playing to orders as you put it, insinuates a flaw in his managerial skills, I do not agree with that in the same entirety, I believe he was forced to play that way through injuries etc.

you seem to have a underlying doubt about Steve Bruce's ability and every set back he encounters you seem to think he is the architect of it.

on the contrary, I think he is doing a good job in very changing circumstances and at a time that very few of the playing personnel know each other's intimate playing style and trust each other.....their individual game will prosper as the the team get stronger and the players can get on with their own jobs.

I am loathe to get carried away or equally castigate every set back he encounters, he is in a work in progress situation, it will be peaks and troughs for a while, until the confidence in each other grows and subsequently the team gets stronger.

I believe managers can only do so much and it's mainly guiding and directing,the players have to do their own jobs.

 

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, JE- said:

This is why I'll take the points but I am not impressed by beating the 2 poorest form teams in the league it's an expectation. If we can't beat them then forget talking of promotion next season we will be in league one 

No one is saying we have beaten the cream of the league and in isolation wins against Bristol City and Rotherham is nothing to shout about. In the context of coming on the back of a dire run of form and a win against Derby though then it is the turning of a corner and now gives us something to build on.

We have two tough games this week now. If we lose both then I am sure those already wanting Bruce out will shout a little louder and a few more may join them. I don’t think we can go from game to game now though. I think as a fan base we need to accept that barring a poor end to this season Bruce will be taking us into next season. The club want stability and I am now inclined to agree that stability will give us the best chance of gaining promotion next season. The club could have sacked Bruce post Newcastle but had we have done we couldn’t have seen more of an upturn in results than we have since then.

I am as disappointed as anyone that we haven’t done better this season but ripping things up and starting again isn’t the answer. You look at all the sides in and around the top 6 and six of the top eight teams have managers that have been there for over a year, the other two in Leeds and Reading have managers that had a full pre season with their sides. This season at least it suggests that a modicum of continuity and stability helps.

I have said before that stability for stability sake shouldn’t be advocated but under a manager with the experience Bruce has and the proven track record of knowing what it takes to get teams out of this division then it would seem like putting the club in good hands in terms of taking the first huge step in getting the club back up where we all want it to be. Whilst it hasn’t been plain sailing under him so far the positives of how he first ground out some results, how he identified and addressed a number of weaknesses in the squad, how he has seen the games we have all seen and acknowledged where we are going wrong and what needs putting right and how he kept calm and assured during a dire run never appearing anything other than convinced in his ability to turn things around has shown me enough to be confident that he is the man to take us forward.

Edited March 6, 2017 by markavfc40

[JE-]

36 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I'm sure it was tongue in cheek when @JE- asked me if I was Steve Bruce's son, but it does touch on a wider problem. 

I have been fairly critical of Bruce over the last couple of months. Maybe not foaming at the mouth, off with his head critical but I've certainly questioned his decision making, the lack of a clear and defined plan, the lack of consistency and the loss of confidence that is allied to that. 

After the defeat to Barnsley I said that he needs to turn it around and he needs to do it now. I'm glad that he has, why wouldn't I be? Why wouldn't that soften my opinion of him? And like a flash, I'm a Bruce apologist.

There's a difference between being fickle and an evidence based change of opinion. Not that my opinion has changed all that much, we were dreadful during that run, there was no clear and defined plan and I was indeed worried that we would sink even further. However, he has dispelled one fear at least - that he wouldn't be able to stop the rot. Three wins on the bounce, regardless of the opposition, will do that. Not only that but there has been a marked improvement in the performances, they are much more akin to those shown earlier in his reign only this time we seem to have a midfield to go with it. 

The next two games are a big test. If we can win one of them fantastic, both and I will be absolutely buzzing for next season already. A couple of points would do. As long as they continue to show something even in defeat then I might just jump back off the fence. 

Aside - I was at all three wins. Watching your team win games of football is bound to put a spring in your step. If it doesn't, football probably isn't for you. IMO. 

It was ':) 

I love our team winning but I still don't forget how clueless Bruce looked when trying to make his own changes and play his own system only to revert back to something he doesn't even believe in himself.. (his own words) 

I don't believe stability starts with a manager look at Southampton they have had both their managers taken off them in quick succession 

It's how you plan for the managerial change that's important.. I still find it rich speaking about stability when we sacked rdm after 12 games.. I'd rather the board show consistency not use buzz words when it suits 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just now, JE- said:

It was ':) 

I love our team winning but I still don't forget how clueless Bruce looked when trying to make his own changes and play his own system only to revert back to something he doesn't even believe in himself.. (his own words) 

I don't believe stability starts with a manager look at Southampton they have had both their managers taken off them in quick succession 

It's how you plan for the managerial change that's important.. I still find it rich speaking about stability when we sacked rdm after 12 games.. I'd rather the board show consistency not use buzz words when it suits 

Nobody has forgotten the bilge of Jan/Feb. I even highlight it in the post you've quoted. 

Southampton have gone nowhere since Poch really, their progression has stagnated. In fact, they have gone backwards this season. That should be taken into account, should it not? Besides, they are a bit of an outlier. A very unique club who may suffer from this lack of stability down the road. I'm intrigued to see what next season brings for them, I've a feeling they may struggle. 

They sacked RDM for more reasons than just results, according to the Dr and Wyness. You don't have to believe them I guess. 

[Nigel]

11 minutes ago, JE- said:

 

I love our team winning but I still don't forget how clueless Bruce looked when trying to make his own changes and play his own system only to revert back to something he doesn't even believe in himself.. (his own words) 

 

You have bought this up a couple of times now.

It's funny how people see things really. You obviously see this as some kind of weakness that he was forced to change systems away from his favoured 442. 

I see it as being flexible. He was faced with a problem and dealt with it. This is especially so at the start of his tenure when we had enough bodies round to play his usual system but decided this way suited the players better.

this second time was rather forced on him but the fact he has it in his locker instead of playing people out of position was in our best interests.

its a real plus point in my book. 

[villa89]

A real test now for Bruce with Huddersfield and Wednesday coming up. He needs to show that he can get us competitive against the sides that we are likely to be competing against for promotion next season. The 3 wins in a row is great but the standard of the opposition wasn't a true test of where we need to be. Injuries notwithstanding we need to put on a performance against Huddersfield. 

[Grasshopper]

2 hours ago, Jareth said:

The bolded bit belongs to a parallel universe, its a hypothetical statement on an event that has already happened and with the opposite outcome. The next step in this condition is shouting at pigeons. 

YOU dont shout at pigeons?

[Grasshopper]

9 hours ago, KSV said:

Think we will bring Huddersfield down to earth and then Sheff Wed will spank us and we will be arguing why we didnt sign Rhodes instead of Hogan. 

Rhodes's father is a coach at ShefW.

He was never coming to us

[Grasshopper]

Hmmmmmm

1 hour ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Southampton have gone nowhere since Poch really, their progression has stagnated. In fact, they have gone backwards this season. That should be taken into account, should it not? Besides, they are a bit of an outlier. A very unique club who may suffer from this lack of stability down the road. I'm intrigued to see what next season brings for them, I've a feeling they may struggle.   

Soton made the Cup final a few weeks ago, came back from 2-0 down, then had a perfectly "legal" goal disallowed.

Mourinho v Puel

ManU v Soton

= The linesmam & Ibrahimavic was the difference

 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just now, Grasshopper said:

Hmmmmmm

Soton made the Cup final a few weeks ago, came back from 2-0 down, then had a perfectly "legal" goal disallowed.

Mourinho v Puel

ManU v Soton

= The linesmam & Ibrahimavic was the difference

 

Yeah, I watched it. 

[Grasshopper]

27 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Yeah, I watched it. 

bit like us a few years back

ManU  v Villa

Gaby v Vidic

Villa v the Ref

[terrytini]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Terry.....I am certainly not attempting to defend Steve Bruce unconditionally and for sure he will make mistakes with the vicissitudes he has to deal with.....but I do believe those were the main reasons I mentioned.

Where we differ Terry is....... those players playing to orders as you put it, insinuates a flaw in his managerial skills, I do not agree with that in the same entirety, I believe he was forced to play that way through injuries etc.

you seem to have a underlying doubt about Steve Bruce's ability and every set back he encounters you seem to think he is the architect of it.

on the contrary, I think he is doing a good job in very changing circumstances and at a time that very few of the playing personnel know each other's intimate playing style and trust each other.....their individual game will prosper as the the team get stronger and the players can get on with their own jobs.

I am loathe to get carried away or equally castigate every set back he encounters, he is in a work in progress situation, it will be peaks and troughs for a while, until the confidence in each other grows and subsequently the team gets stronger.

I believe managers can only do so much and it's mainly guiding and directing,the players have to do their own jobs.

 

Hiya

The trouble with your reasoned replies is they demand a reasoned reply !

So apologies for the length but here's my 'overall' Bruce thoughts.

I don't have a doubt in his skills -     in fact it baffles me how anybody could doubt them !

You don't survive in management at or around the highest level without considerable skills ( it's for this reason I also struggle to see why people belittle the likes of Warnock, Mcarthy etc, they are all decent Managers ).

I certainly don't think he is the architect of all our setbacks either. We are a Championship side with Championship players, they are fallible, error prone, and inconsistent - else they would be playing for Barcelona. 

In any given game players have to be accountable, and ours have done well sometimes and not others. 

As  for whether my views mean I think he has flaws in his managerial skills, yes, I do. But I don't hold it against him or think less of him because of it. Like the players, he is essentially a Championship Manager. So he too is prone to inconsistency and errors - otherwise he'd be Managing Barcelona !!

What manager or player or person doesn't mess up from time to time ?

I agree that whether under Bruce or anybody, we are a work in progress (isn't every team ?) and will have peaks and troughs ( isnt every team ?). And you'd have to be blind not to see we had fallen further and heavier than many others.

As to whether he is doing a good job, nobody knows.

Could someone else do better ? Or worse ? Nobody knows.

Is he massively improving the players he has , or not ? Nobody knows.

Is he aiding the restructuring of our scouting network or youth teams effectively, if at all ? I've no idea, Should he be ? I don't know, only Round and  Wyness can answer that.

Is he instilling virtues in the players/ team/ club that are so desperately needed ? I've no idea and neither does anyone else.

So it's actually hard to say whether he's doing "a good job ".

So I can only really judge that part of his job that  I see on the pitch, which is broadly style, tactics, substitutions,selection, a catch all as regards the players I'd call 'team spirit 'and results.

And I think he did well on 5 of these for the first two months. ...Albeit most victories were against lowly sides....But I thought his style was too defensive/simplistic and would catch us out, as well as not being suitable for this side. I think I UNDERSTAND it , he saw the brittleness under RDM and also it's always been his way, but we needed to take the game to sides as well.

I think he then lost his way as regards tactics and selection. And certainly results.

And that was a very very poor run, considering our players and the quality of opposition.

Do I think it's awful that happened ? Well it was awful for US, as we lost a chance of the Play Offs,  but was it awful 'of him' so to speak? ....No, see above he is entitled to mess up, but IMO he DID mess up. Yes he was given a challenge with Kodja away and new players in, but he largely failed that challenge.

I, and many others, just hoped he would abandon the conservatism and be more positive.

But he now appears to have a more positive mind set IMO, and it's paying dividends. And of course playing a more settled side and system helps.

The real test will be the next two games. It doesn't matter whether we win, but all eyes will be on whether the MF continue to get forward and whether we continue to play with some purpose.

Incidentally I WAS prepared to give him time - half a season, or until the seasons end . It wasn't the performances or even the results for me, it was when he stated Richards "is a stick on if fit".......rightly or wrongly that struck me as being a poor call, in terms of Richards ability, his performances for the Club, and what it said to Baker - that suggested to me the pressure was really telling.

As we stand today, there is obviously neither now any point in him going, nor any likelihood, so the rest of the season is his audition for whether he's here next year. 

I hope performances and results mean he is.

 

[terrytini]

I won't quote Dougs whole post but very much agree there is nothing fickle about being pleased if Bruce produces results and stays, and you don't have to be labelled pro or anti, we can express a view based on what we are seeing, and it's allowed to change. 

I wouldve  thought every fan, whether they think he should be here or not, would love nothing more than for him to prove he's the guy to get us up next year ?

[vreitti]

I do in fact have severe doubts about Bruce's ability, even when taking into account all of his previous achievements, and to tell the truth I really do have a hard time understanding how so many intelligent and passionate fans on here regard him so highly.

It's utterly baffling, and I really have no idea whom you all are comparing him with!? He's a decent manager alright, and he might be good for where we are at the moment, no question, but to me he's light-years away of the type of manager I'd like to see managing our beloved club!

 

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by vreitti

[rubberman]

4 hours ago, JE- said:

This is why I'll take the points but I am not impressed by beating the 2 poorest form teams in the league it's an expectation. If we can't beat them then forget talking of promotion next season we will be in league one 

Going into those games, we had the poorest from in the league, and pretty much the country.  So, no it's not terribly impressive, but it was by no means expected.  Sadly.

[KHV]

I'd be happy if Bruce left at the end of the season, you just know he is going to try and find a way of playing Kodjia and Hogan together when Hogan is fit. Only due to injuries has he been forced to go to 4-3-3 (which works).

I'm sure it won't be long before he start arsing about with 4-4-2 and 3-5-2 again.

[srsmithusa]

9 minutes ago, rubberman said:

Going into those games, we had the poorest from in the league, and pretty much the country.  So, no it's not terribly impressive, but it was by no means expected.  Sadly.

...and that's why I wanted Bruce out.  We were dreadful and there were still excuses for why we should be content with dreadful.  What worries me is that we'll be dreadful again, and the newest excuse will be that we have too many injuries.  Excusing poor performance as "the-best-we-could-do-under-the-circumstances" IS (IMO) the often hypothesized "Villa curse."

RL taught this club to excuse poor performance because it was the best we could do under the circumstances.  That's an organizational culture that will ruin any organization.  It will continue to ruin our club if we tolerate dreadful outcomes.

Right now, it's not an issue.  3 wins in a row and there's nothing to do but celebrate and prepare for tomorrow.  But I fear that the curse of accepting mediocrity will be back soon.

 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 hour ago, vreitti said:

I do in fact have severe doubts about Bruce's ability, even when taking into account all of his previous achievements, and to tell the truth I really do have a hard time understanding how so many intelligent and passionate fans on here regard him so highly.

It's utterly baffling, and I really have no idea whom you all are comparing him with!? He's a decent manager alright, and he might be good for where we are at the moment, no question, but to me he's light-years away of the type of manager I'd like to see managing our beloved club!

I don't think anyone regards him THAT highly, do they? Most seem to think he is a decent manager, which you also say. That's where I'm at to. Where's the confusion?

I don't really know what kind of manager you're expecting to attract in the Championship. It's a bit of a crap shoot down here, we've tried to negate that by going for tried and tested. I doubt Bruce will last more than 18 months in the PL but for me, as it is for the club it seems, getting back to the PL is by far priority number one. 

Wyness said the other day that he envisages us having to build 3 squads. One to get up, one to stabilise in the PL and one to excell. I wouldn't be surprised if that plan requires a new manager each time. Maybe then you'll get the man you think we deserve?

[Eastie]

18 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I don't think anyone regards him THAT highly, do they? Most seem to think he is a decent manager, which you also say. That's where I'm at to. Where's the confusion?

I don't really know what kind of manager you're expecting to attract in the Championship. It's a bit of a crap shoot down here, we've tried to negate that by going for tried and tested. I doubt Bruce will last more than 18 months in the PL but for me, as it is for the club it seems, getting back to the PL is by far priority number one. 

Wyness said the other day that he envisages us having to build 3 squads. One to get up, one to stabilise in the PL and one to excell. I wouldn't be surprised if that plan requires a new manager each time. Maybe then you'll get the man you think we deserve?

Totally agree with this - my only concern with wyness saying that though was it is hardly an incentive to some players - get us up and then we will buy better players than you