romavillan Posted June 7, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 7, 2018 20 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: That assumes they were worth the money we were paying them. The year we got relegated we had the 10th highest wage bill. We finished 20th and went down in March. I actually do think last seasons squad was good enough to achieve promotion. We finished 6 points from automatic and came very close in the play offs. I think we came close enough that based on that alone doesn't warrant Bruce being sacked especially when you take in to account the position we were in when he came in - 5 wins in 18 months, no away win in 14 months, 1 win in 11 Championship games, knocked out of league cup by 4th tier Luton. In the 20 months he has been here he has turned around a side still going backwards and got us to within a whisker of promotion. Turned around a squad lacking heart, desire, fight and leadership to one which for the first time in years was full of team spirit. The big question for me isn't does what he has done in 20 months warrant him being kept on or sacked it is whether he is the right man to take us forward and I am still undecided on that as I can see merits in both keeping him on and letting him go, dependent on replacement obviously. The pros to retaining him will be the continuity angle, the fact at this level he has an excellent record, the fact he knows the players, his contacts in terms of securing loan players and his vast experience which could be useful in what is likely to be a tough time for the club. The cons are that we are likely to have to rely heavily on promoting players from the under 23's something he isn't renowned for having done, his over cautious approach to games, whether at 58 he has the desire to do a rebuilding job with little funds and whether he will use those financial restraints to continually play down our future prospects. For what it is worth I don't think he will be sacked and I think he may well back himself to still be able to take us forward so won't walk. I'd imagine by this time next week we will know for definite one way or the other. I don't think your second paragraph is down to squad failings, we would have got more than those 6 points we needed by avoiding the shit start, not having the awful dip before/around xmas and not totally falling to pieces after our one good run of decent footy put us in second. The squad was there for me, the manager is at fault for not avoiding just one of those three things. I take the point about them being worth it, but if you look at league tables around europe and the wages paid, there's a pretty strong correlation. That's my point, he had the resources at his disposal, stuff like spunking £12m on Hogan and then smashing long balls at him and playing him like a target man is udicrous. The spell where he got 3 in 3 coincided with our best attempts at actually playing football. Coincidence? As I said, I agree he won't walk. what screws us here is we don't have the money to sack him and Round etc. and put together a proper plan going forward. So it'll be bits and pieces and not good enough again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 It was 8 points wasn’t it? Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: You really cannot be serious. You are literally trying to make it seem as Wagner, at Huddersfield, with a fraction of our budget, who got promoted from this very league we failed in twice, has failed, for avoiding relegation in the Premier League. I don't even think you are convinced of that. lol Deadly serious.....He was close to it, but dug out He was the next coming....listening to some....He's a decent manager, that is all. The budget, you keep banging on about has to be spent wisely....otherwise you may as well have no money and deal prudently, like wagner has......and the last window Bruce too. Money at this level, just gives you an edge.....at Man City level its close to a guarantee as you will ever get. We have dumped Mccormack -12 mill ( **** up) Hogan -12 mill ( Doubt) Kodjia -15 mill ( Injured) Thats without wages to Gabby 55k per week, Richards no idea too scared to look. The best Part of 40 mill on players for one reason or another have not given us a return last season.....who can afford that in this league? We will only truly know when Bruce has gone......blimey, I heard today that it was McLeish who first identified Benteke, not Lambert and that Mcleish added him to the newly installed database and tracked him....Riley picked it up and the club went ahead under Lambert.....The point is we all only know so much and plenty we don't....yes, including me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, TRO said: Deadly serious.....He was close to it, but dug out He was the next coming....listening to some....He's a decent manager, that is all. The budget, you keep banging on about has to be spent wisely....otherwise you may as well have no money and deal prudently, like wagner has......and the last window Bruce too. Money at this level, just gives you an edge.....at Man City level its close to a guarantee as you will ever get. We have dumped Mccormack -12 mill ( **** up) Hogan -12 mill ( Doubt) Kodjia -15 mill ( Injured) Thats without wages to Gabby 55k per week, Richards no idea too scared to look. The best Part of 40 mill on players for one reason or another have not given us a return last season.....who can afford that in this league? We will only truly know when Bruce has gone......blimey, I heard today that it was McLeish who first identified Benteke, not Lambert and that Mcleish added him to the newly installed database and tracked him....Riley picked it up and the club went ahead under Lambert.....The point is we all only know so much and plenty we don't....yes, including me. I don’t get your love for Bruce. It’s become irrational! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 42 minutes ago, USA_Villa said: I don't believe you are comparing Jokanovic and Warnock with Bruce. They had footballing philosophies and plans on how they wanted to play, albeit very different ones. Other than buy or loan the most expensive defensive players he could and try and sneak a goal, please explain how you believe his strategy is giving you the confidence that it will all come good next season? are you telling me we never had a plan of how to play? Thats rubbish. It may have had flaws and errors in it....but no plan...Nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I don’t get your love for Bruce. It’s become irrational! Its not a love its a disagreement.....There are things I think he has done wrong, but you and others who are attacking him, haven't mentioned them, so i will just leave that to one side. ....I just think to claim that a man has no tactical Nous with his experience in the game is bordering on nuts.....The guy has captained Man U for over 400 games from Centre half.....do you think he just headed the ball and closed his eyes. so he doesn't major his interviews on tactical explanations.....I don't remember any of our managers doing it.....Ron S you were lucky to get a grunt....usually a one liner. Edited June 7, 2018 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 hour ago, TRO said: Well, If anyone is going to know our situation better than Steve Bruce, I'd like to know who he is. In the ideal world, its not the right reason to be continuing with a manager on that basis....but we are not in an ideal world. He chose a route of experienced players and it didn't quite work to get us over.....but he knows the kids better than anyone....He has to give them their wings now. He wants to stay and I think he should....not because of my comments all season, but because with no or little budget he is as good as any to get us firing again. Its not going to please some, but I believe we could do worse than emulate Cardiff and go power,pace and youth....with a couple of physical players in key positions to look after the kids and allow them to play. We have never been any good with spending money anyway, so perhaps we have been forced out of a strategy we have no success in.....just trying to look for positives. TRO - I am as always very respectful to you - but I am really struggling to see how you can suggest that Bruce might be good with the kids ? On which basis please may I ask - his style of management is based on recruiting experienced players who go out and just do it - in many ways you can argue he is a poor mans Big Ron in this particular element of managing - but then comes the main difference - Big Rons teams could play 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, TRO said: Its not a love its a disagreement.....There are things I think he has done wrong, but you and others who are attacking him, haven't mentioned them, so i will just leave that to one side. ....I just think to claim that a man has not tactical Nous with his experience in the game is bordering on nuts.....The guy has captained Man U for over 400 games from Centre half.....do you think he just headed the ball and closed his eyes. so he doesn't major his interviews on tactical explanations.....I don't remember any of our managers doing it.....Ron S you were lucky to get a grunt....usually a one liner. Oh I agree he has tactical nous. He has to have to be any sort of manager and for so long. Its just not turned out to be of the standard of some of his peers hence we fell short. The standard of football has become so high it’s very fine margins these days. Managers need to do a lot more than they did in the 80s to keep up. Edited June 7, 2018 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I'm Bruce in, because it's best for the club this season. We are not going up this season but we sure can put the foundations in for the future and Bruce is definitely the man for the job. We'll get a Wagner later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 26 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: It’s second time @TRO has mentioned Wagner as if he had a bad season. What Wagner achieved in the last 2 seasons with Huddersfield is incredible. just trying to temper hyperbole. No but he hasn't pulled any trees up, he has just kept them up, which is good too.......which is surprising with the intensity some fans wanted him with us, I thought he was on par with Klopp. so its incredible.... Better than Chris Hughton? Better than Neil Warnock? Better than Rafa? Now if you said Sean Dyche, I would have to take note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, TRO said: just trying to temper hyperbole. No but he hasn't pulled any trees up, he has just kept them up, which is good too.......which is surprising with the intensity some fans wanted him with us, I thought he was on par with Klopp. so its incredible.... Better than Chris Hughton? Better than Neil Warnock? Better than Rafa? Now if you said Sean Dyche, I would have to take note. Tro you have to look at who he has done it with. We’re talking Huddersfield ffs! Edit: I also think what Warnock has achieved is incredible too. Rafa, Hughton and Dyche also superb but they’ve good foundations for a while now. Edited June 7, 2018 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Wagner >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bruce cant even believe we are comparing the seasons of both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 14 minutes ago, Jareth said: I'm Bruce in, because it's best for the club this season. We are not going up this season but we sure can put the foundations in for the future and Bruce is definitely the man for the job. We'll get a Wagner later. Maybe but where has he ever put in foundations for a club to go on a prosper after he has left? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post omariqy Posted June 7, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 7, 2018 It's honestly crazy. I've spoken to a few champ players and plenty of them and their teammates thought it was going to be Villa and one other at the start of the season. Bruce failed ultimately but he did many good things. We won't have the experience or the guile of players like Snodgrass. We will need to be patient with the kids, it won't be pretty - Bruce isn't the man to do it. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Maybe but where has he ever put in foundations for a club to go on a prosper after he has left? I mean, we really need a bit of continuity this season while we transition from mega bucks spending to a club that's sustainable - can't see why we would change it up, he failed but literally in the least worst way possible coming 4th and the top 3 going up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, omariqy said: It's honestly crazy. I've spoken to a few champ players and plenty of them and their teammates thought it was going to be Villa and one other at the start of the season. Bruce failed ultimately but he did many good things. We won't have the experience or the guile of players like Snodgrass. We will need to be patient with the kids, it won't be pretty - Bruce isn't the man to do it. I agree. The more I think about it we had one hell of a squad for this level yet we never really looked convincing for long enough periods in the season. Something was always lacking. Maybe it was the pressure. Maybe it was the injures. Something just wasn’t right. Edited June 7, 2018 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) 47 minutes ago, TRO said: Its not a love its a disagreement.....There are things I think he has done wrong, but you and others who are attacking him, haven't mentioned them, so i will just leave that to one side. ....I just think to claim that a man has no tactical Nous with his experience in the game is bordering on nuts.....The guy has captained Man U for over 400 games from Centre half.....do you think he just headed the ball and closed his eyes. so he doesn't major his interviews on tactical explanations.....I don't remember any of our managers doing it.....Ron S you were lucky to get a grunt....usually a one liner. Well he was very limited TRO - but credit where it's due - he played with his heart on his sleeve and through a determined attitude and approach to the game - he was touted as the best centre half never to play for England - but in reality he played like he managed not quite good enough imo i Edited June 7, 2018 by Dave J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 hour ago, TRO said: We need a season of low expectation and a Crowd who acknowledges many players stepping up from the academy....you might be surprised just how partisan our crowd can be with young players. We have to change.....Steve has to change his approach too. I think we have all been highly strung.....The lot of us Owner, manager, players, fans. We need to stop beating ourselves up and go out and play the game, like we know we can....Attacking football should be the order of the day...not reckless or cavalier, but taking the initiative to the opponent every week. The stadium, should be a boost to us, not the opposition( when folk say it motivates the opposition, its because we let it)......We had a forward line once Deehan-Gray-Little..... talk about effervescence.....Yes they were young and special, but they was given a chance.....The kids must sink or swim. So bruce's reward for failure that is damaging the club is to now pick up his wages with no expectations to do anything. **** hell, this must be a wet dream for some. Bruce can do what he likes and if people aren't happy they'll have excuse after excuse and low expectations thrown at them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Just now, Vive_La_Villa said: I agree. The more I think about it we had one hell of a squad for this level yet we never really looked convincing for long enough periods in the season. Something was always lacking. Maybe it was the pressure. We had so much experience that was meant to get us through sticky patches. Yet when the pressure told we faltered. It didn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 27 minutes ago, Jareth said: I'm Bruce in, because it's best for the club this season. We are not going up this season but we sure can put the foundations in for the future and Bruce is definitely the man for the job. We'll get a Wagner later. What foundations are they? He has added to the mess he inherited. What will bruce leave to build on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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