Steve Bruce

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

Well then be more clear, perhaps?

you said he shoulders the blame.  What did you mean?  Should he be held accountable for that?

 

We are wired different mate....lets leave it there.

[Eastie]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

All managers are frustrating, because what they have to do is.....respect for your comments, sorry about the next post......I am frustrated too.

The 20 mill.....one player was 15.... He might have got that wrong, they ALL do.

so lets get a bit of perspective going one here......a couple of managers spent 50 mill a piece before him and trapped.

We need respect for our manager.....its not as easy as some of us intimate.....but if you just don't like him.....the arguments against him are suspect.

 

I don’t need to like him , the arguments are not suspect , he’s spent a lot of cash in January last year , his tactics are questionable and when things do wrong he throws his toys out the pram and has a pop at fans for criticising him .

He gets well paid to do the job - yes we all want promotion , that’s what he was hired for - if we fail then he has failed . 

You yourself said he had to go after Boxing Day !  We are all hurting mate - don’t take anything to heart - if we win promotion I will be happier than anything and praise him to the heavens

Edited March 18, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, Eastie said:

I don’t need to like him , the arguments are not suspect , he’s spent a lot of cash in January last year , his tactics are questionable and when things do wrong he throws his toys out the pram and has a pop at fans for criticising him .

He gets well paid to do the job - yes we all want promotion , that’s what he was hired for - if we fail then he has failed . 

You yourself said he had to go after Boxing Day !  We are all hurting mate - don’t take anything to heart - if we win promotion I will be happier than anything and praise him to the heavens

I did say that....and I was wrong, it was kneejerk.

[TRO]

13 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

There are plenty managers who would more likely have done a better job than what Bruce has done, thing is, we'll never know.

How profound.

[sheepyvillian]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

How profound.

Now, now, no need for compliments.

Thanks all the same though.

[Dave J]

39 minutes ago, TRO said:

Ha ha after 20 wins and just conceding 3rd place.....you have the audacity to pull me up for being iffy.

spare me the embarrassment.

who gives a flying **** how much money he or uncle tom cobley spends its a weak effort to give vent to your emotions.....Its pathetic, quite frankly......How much has West Ham spent.....drop it, its nonsense.....money just gives you a chance, not a guarantee.

Money just opens doors to the players you want, they still might not be the right ones, given time it tells.

Your judgement in my opinion is just based on getting what you want and to hell with anything else.....sack em all and just keep sacking em until we find the one that gets us what we want.

For me and only me, your rationale is disturbing.

support him and shelve your disappointment....there is not a rake of managers better.

TRO - you are probably the most balanced and measured person on here - however you do in my opinion have s blind spot when it comes to Bruce and his managerial abilities.

i feel most people would acknowledge that Jokanovic and Wagner are both tactically more astute than Bruce is ever likely to be imo.

Look there is little point in going over old ground - but you should remember we have been not good longer than we have been good under Bruce - both from a win ratio and quality of fayre on offer.

i am of the opinion that he absolutely stays until our destiny is known - but if we fail in the play off final I am also of the opinion that he goes immediately- TRO in  footballing terms Bruce is light years behind these guys whether we like it or not.

He has 4 promotions on his CV mainly due to longevity  in the game rather than any great ability again in my opinion. Your loyalties are to be applauded to a degree but also questionable to the same degree imo. TRO 

[srsmithusa]

57 minutes ago, TRO said:

Yeah...wallow in it.

its more than i got over the last 2 games.

ps sad if thats your only sport.

It’s the best Villa related win in the last week.  

[mikeyp102]

I’ve said it since the summer and won’t change my mind, if Bruce doesn’t get us promoted he has to go. He will have failed and we will need someone new. Who that is, I don know. Personally don’t think Smith will be up to the task. For what it’s worth, I think Bruce will get us up this season.

[terrytini]

I think Bruce has made a few errors this week, both games, in selection and tactics. He has pretty much said so himself.

I think the players ( and Fans) hit a High against Wolves which has been followed by a dip - seen it often enough. It isn’t inevitable but it’s not uncommon.

Three times I’ve wanted Bruce out, last Spring, after 4 or 5 games this season, and befor3 Christmas. Each time, the same reason, that he appeared incapable - in my personal view due  to an overly cautious approach, (NOT because he didn’t understand game management or tactics..... I happen to think that’s a ludicrous suggestion relating to someone who has played and managed at a high level for so long) of getting the best from a talented enough squad.

I don’t think it’s a squad of world beaters, it may not be the best in the League, but it had more talent than was evident, in my view. I saw then, and see now, no real relevance in how much he has or hasn’t spent. I think spending only really makes a big difference at the top of the Premier League.

Since December I’ve seen him add the positive thrust I thought missing. It certainly brought results.

I don’t agree with those who say we can’t compete with physical sides, and I don’t agree with those who say we can’t compete with possession sides. 

I think we compete all but as well as any team other than Wolves, as evidenced by our League position.

I haven’t seen anything in these two defeats, nor the one by Fulham, that makes me question his managerial ability. In my view, he has made some errors, some players haven’t performed, and we’ve paid. But it happens. It’s football, and we are a Championship side, with a Championship Manager, we are not Barcelona.

I find the building up of other Managers ( sometimes named, but the names chang3 monthly.... more often just described as “ younger and more progressive/ modern/ etc) rather perplexing.....with Managers it’s right time right Club as much as anything, there are countless examples of someone doing a good job at oneClub, or for one season, only to later fail. There is no magic Manager...if there was, we’d be a long way down the list of Clubs who’d get him. You find your own one and it clicks, if you are lucky. If you aren’t, you have to try again.

As far as I can see ( and the table backs it up) Bruce is doing a good job. I see no logic at all in the idea that if we miss out we go out and start all over again. I know some do......especially just now and I understand why.....but it makes no sense to me.

I don’t buy the argument that he should be judged against what a hypothetical different person might have done, or what different people with different players at different Clubs with different pressures and different recent history’s are doing.

If we still played, and accrued Points, the same as we were I’d say we are getting nowhere.....but we don’t play the same, we Win more, we score more, we are more resilient, there is a better character about the side.

He is flawed. We, as a side, are flawed, but that’s as far as it goes for me. I think he’s doing a good job, and see no reason as yet as to why we would be better if he leaves in May, but several reasons why we could regret it.

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by terrytini

[Villarocker]

4 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

It sounds like you are saying that he “shoulders the blame” but can’t be held accountable for it.   I think you’re drawing a line between specific playing errors (short term) and errors over the long term.  I would add that I hold a manager responsible for  repeated playing errors, individual and team preparation.  Errors in those, facilitate playing errors.   

I would also say that the playing errors for which you are IMO too quick to excuse him are made by players he signed, contracted, trained, prepared, coached, selected, and set up in a strategy.  

But you ask me why the wheels have come off.  First, I will say that you have regularly told me (when I was complaining that players made serious errors and were not replaced) that I didn’t know what happened in training.  But that cuts both ways.  I can’t possibly say what is wrong in training and preparation. I can only judge by the outcome.   Clearly you agree that the product in the last 2 games is not good

Based on the display, i think it’s a very long list of contributing factors that fall on the manager.  Failure to rotate effectively during a compressed schedule.  Failure to select the players that best handle the particular opponent and their style of play.  Failure to implement and stay with a strategy or game plan.  Putting a line up (4 forwards) on the pitch without adjusting the plan to suit that formation (long ball).  I will again note that none of these ARE individual player errors, but they all contribute to player errors.  Those are ways I think Bruce contributed to our recent come apart... this is  not a comprehensive list of what I think are his errors since he first came.  Just those that reply to your question.  

If the come apart is player errors, whoever trained, prepared, selected them and set the strategy for them to follow clearly failed to do that very well.  

I'm not defending TRO or anybody else here, just going to give you Bruce's idea behind replacing the wingers (Adomah & Snodgrass) with forwards. He said that the conditions didn't help us and that the wide men couldn't run with the ball so he decided to replace them. 

Make of that what you will. 

[Tomaszk]

On 14/08/2017 at 14:18, Tomaszk said:

I just think we're set up so well for someone to come and be a hero. Great chance for anyone.

We've got a great squad for this league and are still(!) playing with so fear and caution. I think it really is as simple as attack some teams and results and goals will start to come.

Bruce has no plan. Never did. We've missed out by not getting a coach who plays football with some faint idea of what he wants. We'd have walked automatic. What a chance missed to gut the club and rebuild, we could be paying for this for years.

Got a sniff in the playoffs. I'd fancy us more in a one off final than in the two-legger to get us there though.

Bruce must go, up or not.

[terrytini]

43 minutes ago, Dave J said:

 

i feel most people would acknowledge that Jokanovic and Wagner are both tactically more astute than Bruce is ever likely to be imo.

i am of the opinion that he absolutely stays until our destiny is known - but if we fail in the play off final I am also of the opinion that he goes immediately- TRO in  footballing terms Bruce is light years behind these guys whether we like it or not.

I don’t want an argument. But if you fancy a civilised chat I will ask, genuinely, what you mean. I have criticised Bruce a fair amount....but I’m not sure in what way I see any more astuteness from the two you name....and I also don’t know in what way you see him as light years behind them “ in footballing terms”.

I see he plays a different way. I see one way is more in vogue ( I don’t mean that at all patronisingly) But it’s not new. Bertie Mee with Don Howe played like Fulham in the 70’s, As did others. I don’t think he is unaware of the concept of pass and move, or any other style.....how could he be....if we are aware of it I’m sure he is !!

I don’t see how one method is “ ahead” or “ behind” the other ?

[Nabby]

36 minutes ago, villarocker said:

I'm not defending TRO or anybody else here, just going to give you Bruce's idea behind replacing the wingers (Adomah & Snodgrass) with forwards. He said that the conditions didn't help us and that the wide men couldn't run with the ball so he decided to replace them. 

Make of that what you will. 

The problem is he replaced them with players out of position and we lost all semblance of a shape or plan .I didn't see the QPR game but by most accounts we made changes in that game and the same happened we were even less effective.

Lets not forget the first sub was Hourihane off and RHM on so we gave up a man in mf to add a striker to go upfront to be supplied by wingers who weren't able to run with the ball and create anything ..which lead to Jack who was the most likely to create anything dropping deeper 

 

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, villarocker said:

I'm not defending TRO or anybody else here, just going to give you Bruce's idea behind replacing the wingers (Adomah & Snodgrass) with forwards. He said that the conditions didn't help us and that the wide men couldn't run with the ball so he decided to replace them. 

Make of that what you will. 

Makes sense, on paper, but wouldn’t the instructions be “hit it long to the boys up front and let them make something of it?” Not “let jack or Lewis get it deep and carry it forward?”   The latter, which we seemed to do, nullifies the hoped for numeric advantage up top.   The lineup and the tactic did not align   

 

[mikeyp102]

2 hours ago, villarocker said:

I'm not defending TRO or anybody else here, just going to give you Bruce's idea behind replacing the wingers (Adomah & Snodgrass) with forwards. He said that the conditions didn't help us and that the wide men couldn't run with the ball so he decided to replace them. 

Make of that what you will. 

What doesn’t make sense with that is that he brought RHM on first. If the wingers can’t run with the ball what’s an inexperienced small forward going to do? If anything, Davis should’ve been the first sub on, meaning we could go more direct, thus avoiding the situation of trying to run the ball on the ground.

[villakram]

3 hours ago, terrytini said:

I think Bruce has made a few errors this week, both games, in selection and tactics. He has pretty much said so himself.

I think the players ( and Fans) hit a High against Wolves which has been followed by a dip - seen it often enough. It isn’t inevitable but it’s not uncommon.

Three times I’ve wanted Bruce out, last Spring, after 4 or 5 games this season, and befor3 Christmas. Each time, the same reason, that he appeared incapable - in my personal view due  to an overly cautious approach, (NOT because he didn’t understand game management or tactics..... I happen to think that’s a ludicrous suggestion relating to someone who has played and managed at a high level for so long) of getting the best from a talented enough squad.

I don’t think it’s a squad of world beaters, it may not be the best in the League, but it had more talent than was evident, in my view. I saw then, and see now, no real relevance in how much he has or hasn’t spent. I think spending only really makes a big difference at the top of the Premier League.

Since December I’ve seen him add the positive thrust I thought missing. It certainly brought results.

I don’t agree with those who say we can’t compete with physical sides, and I don’t agree with those who say we can’t compete with possession sides. 

I think we compete all but as well as any team other than Wolves, as evidenced by our League position.

I haven’t seen anything in these two defeats, nor the one by Fulham, that makes me question his managerial ability. In my view, he has made some errors, some players haven’t performed, and we’ve paid. But it happens. It’s football, and we are a Championship side, with a Championship Manager, we are not Barcelona.

I find the building up of other Managers ( sometimes named, but the names chang3 monthly.... more often just described as “ younger and more progressive/ modern/ etc) rather perplexing.....with Managers it’s right time right Club as much as anything, there are countless examples of someone doing a good job at oneClub, or for one season, only to later fail. There is no magic Manager...if there was, we’d be a long way down the list of Clubs who’d get him. You find your own one and it clicks, if you are lucky. If you aren’t, you have to try again.

As far as I can see ( and the table backs it up) Bruce is doing a good job. I see no logic at all in the idea that if we miss out we go out and start all over again. I know some do......especially just now and I understand why.....but it makes no sense to me.

I don’t buy the argument that he should be judged against what a hypothetical different person might have done, or what different people with different players at different Clubs with different pressures and different recent history’s are doing.

If we still played, and accrued Points, the same as we were I’d say we are getting nowhere.....but we don’t play the same, we Win more, we score more, we are more resilient, there is a better character about the side.

He is flawed. We, as a side, are flawed, but that’s as far as it goes for me. I think he’s doing a good job, and see no reason as yet as to why we would be better if he leaves in May, but several reasons why we could regret it.

 

 

 

Bruce is not doing a good job. He is at best doing an average to below average job. He has one of the most expensive squads assembled in the history of the championship sitting in the playoff places. Let's build him a statue.

[Demitri_C]

4 hours ago, villakram said:

Bruce is not doing a good job. He is at best doing an average to below average job. He has one of the most expensive squads assembled in the history of the championship sitting in the playoff places. Let's build him a statue.

I would say underachieving, I wouldn’t go as far as saying not doing a good job.

[Eastie]

10 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I would say underachieving, I wouldn’t go as far as saying not doing a good job.

It’s frustrating - even more so because we got to 2nd place and have since taken 10 points from 21 while Cardiff have taken 18 from 18 to go back above us - ive changed my opinion on Bruce more than once this season - every time he seems to have turned things around we then falter again - we could not afford this slip .

The line between success and failure is very thin- he’s not doing a bad job but I do believe there are others who could have done better .

However he is manager at the moment and we must hope he can somehow get us up in the play offs - and if he does so he will have been a success.

if we do not go up I’m far from convinced that next season would be better as the better players will be gone.

until the season ends we must unite as a club and give it everything - once the season is over I’m sure Bruce’s future will be discussed..

 

[Demitri_C]

40 minutes ago, Eastie said:

It’s frustrating - even more so because we got to 2nd place and have since taken 10 points from 21 while Cardiff have taken 18 from 18 to go back above us - ive changed my opinion on Bruce more than once this season - every time he seems to have turned things around we then falter again - we could not afford this slip .

The line between success and failure is very thin- he’s not doing a bad job but I do believe there are others who could have done better .

However he is manager at the moment and we must hope he can somehow get us up in the play offs - and if he does so he will have been a success.

if we do not go up I’m far from convinced that next season would be better as the better players will be gone.

until the season ends we must unite as a club and give it everything - once the season is over I’m sure Bruce’s future will be discussed..

 

I agree with most of that. I won't turn on bruce as we have him now until the summer at least.  I will still support him but it seems to be a trend with him. We get ourselves in  good position then implode and fall down leaving us with a tougher job. 

The last two results for me have been completely unacceptable. If we dont beat hull (the team even blose put three past) then he really has lost the plot.

I cant believe we have bottled it in this fashion

[Eastie]

16 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I agree with most of that. I won't turn on bruce as we have him now until the summer at least.  I will still support him but it seems to be a trend with him. We get ourselves in  good position then implode and fall down leaving us with a tougher job. 

The last two results for me have been completely unacceptable. If we dont beat hull (the team even blose put three past) then he really has lost the plot.

I cant believe we have bottled it in this fashion

I really didn’t see this coming after the wolves win - I’m guilty myself of feeling we had maybe cracked it and maybe there was an air of complacency - certain.y for me there was a lack of desire and passion on Tuesday night - as for Saturday the pitch conditions were difficult and a great leveller - not an excuse but I felt Bolton had more hunger to their game but it’s hard to criticise players in those conditions as the ball wasn’t flowing like in a normal game .

im not sure we bottled it - more a case of taking our foot off the gas - hopefully it’s a lesson learnt but I dread having to play fulham in the play off final if that’s how it turns out .