Steve Bruce

[USA_Villa]

4 hours ago, TRO said:

For no other reason of proving a point.....I would love to see Dean Smith take over.

so he does.

and the things like expectation, the pressure of a big club , which is largely intangible kicks in and it all crumbles.....what then?

I can tell you that if we sacked Bruce and brought in Dean Smith there would be a few raised eyebrows in football.....and not for the better.

Dean Smith is not the next Graham Taylor or Brian Clough......Decent manager, doing a good job at a club with low expectation and limited funds, plays a brand of football that is pleasing to the eye, but pulls up no trees on the defensive side.

If he was so good, why has other ambitious Championship clubs not come in for him.....He only lived in Walsall, why didn't Albion come in or Wolves or Derby or even Nottingham Forest.

This Dean Smith thing is fantasy.

So, Dean Smith has played against Bruce and the Villa three times. Won 2 and drew 1. In the two wins Brentford outplayed the Villa both times, and in the draw Johnstone was the MOM. The Villa have spent 80 million in the last two years, plus all the expensive loans and John Terry, which is more than Brentford have spent in their history.

Therefore, with a limited budget, and less talented players he has battered Bruce on every occasion  he's come up against him. That's why we should look at Dean Smith. If we don't get him, West Brom will. With their premiership money and him in charge, they would be one of the favorites to go up next season.

 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Eastie said:

Warnock wouldn’t leave Cardiff in the premiership and I doubt very much xia would want him - if Bruce goes its time to appoint a younger more modern coach with progressive tactics .

And what exactly are they......what is this new modern format that guarantee's success.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, srsmithusa said:

It sounds like you are saying that he “shoulders the blame” but can’t be held accountable for it.   I think you’re drawing a line between specific playing errors (short term) and errors over the long term.  I would add that I hold a manager responsible for  repeated playing errors, individual and team preparation.  Errors in those, facilitate playing errors.   

I would also say that the playing errors for which you are IMO too quick to excuse him are made by players he signed, contracted, trained, prepared, coached, selected, and set up in a strategy.  

But you ask me why the wheels have come off.  First, I will say that you have regularly told me (when I was complaining that players made serious errors and were not replaced) that I didn’t know what happened in training.  But that cuts both ways.  I can’t possibly say what is wrong in training and preparation. I can only judge by the outcome.   Clearly you agree that the product in the last 2 games is not good

Based on the display, i think it’s a very long list of contributing factors that fall on the manager.  Failure to rotate effectively during a compressed schedule.  Failure to select the players that best handle the particular opponent and their style of play.  Failure to implement and stay with a strategy or game plan.  Putting a line up (4 forwards) on the pitch without adjusting the plan to suit that formation (long ball).  I will again note that none of these ARE individual player errors, but they all contribute to player errors.  Those are ways I think Bruce contributed to our recent come apart... this is  not a comprehensive list of what I think are his errors since he first came.  Just those that reply to your question.  

If the come apart is player errors, whoever trained, prepared, selected them and set the strategy for them to follow clearly failed to do that very well.  

Thanks for that.....I'll bail out

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, USA_Villa said:

So, Dean Smith has played against Bruce and the Villa three times. Won 2 and drew 1. In the two wins Brentford outplayed the Villa both times, and in the draw Johnstone was the MOM. The Villa have spent 80 million in the last two years, plus all the expensive loans and John Terry, which is more than Brentford have spent in their history.

Therefore, with a limited budget, and less talented players he has battered Bruce on every occasion  he's come up against him. That's why we should look at Dean Smith. If we don't get him, West Brom will. With their premiership money and him in charge, they would be one of the favorites to go up next season.

 

Just simply disagree.....let a bigger club than Brentford sign him ams see what happens.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, AntrimBlack said:

If Xia wants to make our great club successful again, he will need better than Smith or Warnock.

So who?

[TRO]

1 hour ago, srsmithusa said:

It sounds like you are saying that he “shoulders the blame” but can’t be held accountable for it.   I think you’re drawing a line between specific playing errors (short term) and errors over the long term.  I would add that I hold a manager responsible for  repeated playing errors, individual and team preparation.  Errors in those, facilitate playing errors.   

I would also say that the playing errors for which you are IMO too quick to excuse him are made by players he signed, contracted, trained, prepared, coached, selected, and set up in a strategy.  

But you ask me why the wheels have come off.  First, I will say that you have regularly told me (when I was complaining that players made serious errors and were not replaced) that I didn’t know what happened in training.  But that cuts both ways.  I can’t possibly say what is wrong in training and preparation. I can only judge by the outcome.   Clearly you agree that the product in the last 2 games is not good

Based on the display, i think it’s a very long list of contributing factors that fall on the manager.  Failure to rotate effectively during a compressed schedule.  Failure to select the players that best handle the particular opponent and their style of play.  Failure to implement and stay with a strategy or game plan.  Putting a line up (4 forwards) on the pitch without adjusting the plan to suit that formation (long ball).  I will again note that none of these ARE individual player errors, but they all contribute to player errors.  Those are ways I think Bruce contributed to our recent come apart... this is  not a comprehensive list of what I think are his errors since he first came.  Just those that reply to your question.  

If the come apart is player errors, whoever trained, prepared, selected them and set the strategy for them to follow clearly failed to do that very well.  

If you think the first line, you have failed to understand anything i have said.

[Eastie]

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

And what exactly are they......what is this new modern format that guarantee's success.

You wont like the answer but the likes of jokanovic and Wagner are streets ahead of Steve Bruce tactically and have done extremely well with far less a squad than Bruce .

Huddesfield, wolves and Fulham all showed there are managers out there and the style off football is streets ahead of what we’ve seen under Bruce .

I am not calling for Bruce’s head until we see how the season pans out but there are managers out there better than him who we could have tried for .

i was desperate for us to go for jokanovic at the time Rdm came and again when he was sacked - wyness took the safe old school option. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

41 minutes ago, TRO said:

And what exactly are they......what is this new modern format that guarantee's success.

I don’t thing young or modern was the right choice of words in the original post. It would be nice to have a manager with a style of play that isnt so direct and one dimensional.  Nobody says it guarantees success. 

I don’t care how old the manager is though. 

[Eastie]

12 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don’t thing young or modern was the right choice of words in the original post. It would be nice to have a manager with a style of play that isnt so direct and one dimensional.  Nobody says it guarantees success. 

I don’t care how old the manager is though. 

Younger not young was the word used - Bruce is closing in on 60 and stuck in the footballing dark ages tactically .

No more of the old school managers - let’s have someone tactically aware and who plays a brand of decent football where formations can be fluent and switched if neede that we can all get behind - Bruce himself famously admitted when in charge of Sunderland ‘ I don’t do tactics ‘. 

This 4 strikers and no supply or support to them was a throwback to the dark ages . 

‘The game has changed and Bruce hasn’t changed with it - tactically he’s been outwitted several times this season .

Bruce will be judged on results and performances - I’ve praised him many times but there’s been little in the last 2 games to defend him . 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

23 minutes ago, Eastie said:

You wont like the answer but the likes of jokanovic and Wagner are streets ahead of Steve Bruce tactically and have done extremely well with far less a squad than Bruce .

Huddesfield, wolves and Fulham all showed there are managers out there and the style off football is streets ahead of what we’ve seen under Bruce .

I am not calling for Bruce’s head until we see how the season pans out but there are managers out there better than him who we could have tried for .

i was desperate for us to go for jokanovic at the time Rdm came and again when he was sacked - wyness took the safe old school option. 

I actually disagree......Jokanovic has proved nothing to support you argumentt, neither has Wagner....Nuno had his team turned over despite the dubious way he has acquired, better players than ours.....yes they are a better team than us, despite their tanking on the day.

Jokanovic, just joined our manager by throwing caution to the wind and making strange substitutions.....to us.....but true to form one gets castigated the other gets off scott free.

such balance.

you say you are not calling for his head, but your praise when called upon after wins, is begrudinging.

but your opinions as ever are interesting.

[Eastie]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I actually disagree......Jokanovic has proved nothing to support you argumentt, neither has Wagner....Nuno had his team turned over despite the dubious way he has acquired, better players than ours.....yes they are a better team than us, despite their tanking on the day.

Jokanovic, just joined our manager by throwing caution to the wind and making strange substitutions.....to us.....but true to form one gets castigated the other gets off scott free.

such balance.

you say you are not calling for his head, but your praise when called upon after wins, is begrudinging.

but your opinions as ever are interesting.

Having a pop at jokanovic when his team are on the best run in their history seems a bit iffy , did Wagner not win promotion last season spending far less than Bruce spent in January alone last year?

my praise of Bruce was not begrudging at all - he will be judged  on results ultimately and failure to get promotion will means he has failed at the job he was brought in for ,

im sure we all hope we win the play offs and Bruce is a hero but the criticism in the last 2 games is totally justified . 

[TRO]

27 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don’t thing young or modern was the right choice of words in the original post. It would be nice to have a manager with a style of play that isnt so direct and one dimensional.  Nobody says it guarantees success. 

I don’t care how old the manager is though. 

I just disagree.

I admit the manager is responsible for his signings......but there is some mitigation in so much how much he has to spend and are his first choices available.

for my sins....I don't think our centre Mid is strong enough, for what we are expecting and no better in the squad...just my take.....what we do now, not sure the windows are closed.

Ps ...my comments are in terms of consistency......please make that clear.

Edited March 18, 2018 by TRO

[Eastie]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I just disagree.

I admit the manager is responsible for his signings......but there is some mitigation in so much how much he has to spend and are his first choices available.

for my sins....I don't think our centre Mid is strong enough, for what we are expecting and no better in the squad...just my take.....what we do now, not sure the windows are closed.

Ps ...my comments are in terms of consistency......please make that clear.

Tro - how much did Steve Bruce spend in January last season when he bought in 8 players in that window.

wyness  made clear at the time we were doing business early and there would be little done in the summer .

Bruce spent the best part of £20m on hogan and Bree alone . 

Ps - tro - I like you and respect your debating skills , you are a good man and I hope you don’t think I’m singling you out for criticism .

i have changed my opinion on Bruce twice this season and there is no black and white argument - only shades of grey .

He is however very frustrating at times .

Edited March 18, 2018 by Eastie

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, Eastie said:

Having a pop at jokanovic when his team are on the best run in their history seems a bit iffy , did Wagner not win promotion last season spending far less than Bruce spent in January alone last year?

my praise of Bruce was not begrudging at all - he will be judged  on results ultimately and failure to get promotion will means he has failed at the job he was brought in for ,

im sure we all hope we win the play offs and Bruce is a hero but the criticism in the last 2 games is totally justified . 

Ha ha after 20 wins and just conceding 3rd place.....you have the audacity to pull me up for being iffy.

spare me the embarrassment.

who gives a flying **** how much money he or uncle tom cobley spends its a weak effort to give vent to your emotions.....Its pathetic, quite frankly......How much has West Ham spent.....drop it, its nonsense.....money just gives you a chance, not a guarantee.

Money just opens doors to the players you want, they still might not be the right ones, given time it tells.

Your judgement in my opinion is just based on getting what you want and to hell with anything else.....sack em all and just keep sacking em until we find the one that gets us what we want.

For me and only me, your rationale is disturbing.

support him and shelve your disappointment....there is not a rake of managers better.

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Thanks for that.....I'll bail out

Then I guess I win. ?

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, Eastie said:

Tro - how much did Steve Bruce spend in January last season when he bought in 8 players in that window.

wyness  made clear at the time we were doing business early and there would be little done in the summer .

Bruce spent the best part of £20m on hogan and Bree alone . 

Ps - tro - I like you and respect your debating skills , you are a good man and I hope you don’t think I’m singling you out for criticism .

i have changed my opinion on Bruce twice this season and there is no black and white argument - only shades of grey .

He is however very frustrating at times .

All managers are frustrating, because what they have to do is.....respect for your comments, sorry about the next post......I am frustrated too.

The 20 mill.....one player was 15.... He might have got that wrong, they ALL do.

so lets get a bit of perspective going one here......a couple of managers spent 50 mill a piece before him and trapped.

We need respect for our manager.....its not as easy as some of us intimate.....but if you just don't like him.....the arguments against him are suspect.

 

[Eastie]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

Ha ha after 20 wins and just conceding 3rd place.....you have the audacity to pull me up for being iffy.

spare me the embarrassment.

who gives a flying **** how much money he or uncle tom cobley spends its a weak effort to give vent to your emotions.....Its pathetic, quite frankly......How much has West Ham spent.....drop it, its nonsense.....money just gives you a chance, not a guarantee.

Money just opens doors to the players you want, they still might not be the right ones, given time it tells.

Your judgement in my opinion is just based on getting what you want and to hell with anything else.....sack em all and just keep sacking em until we find the one that gets us what we want.

For me and only me, your rationale is disturbing.

support him and shelve your disappointment....there is not a rake of managers better.

But you said Bruce has had little to spend - I pointed out he spent nearly £20m on hogan and Bree alone besides , Lansbury, hourihane, etc .

what  have West ham got to do with it?

bruce was hired to get promotion - that’s his remit - he said that himself as did wyness .

I will support him and judge him on results - the last 2 games are unacceptable and as manager the buck stops with him .

Edited March 18, 2018 by Eastie

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

If you think the first line, you have failed to understand anything i have said.

Well then be more clear, perhaps?

you said he shoulders the blame.  What did you mean?  Should he be held accountable for that?

 

[TRO]

1 minute ago, srsmithusa said:

Then I guess I win. ?

Yeah...wallow in it.

its more than i got over the last 2 games.

ps sad if thats your only sport.

[sheepyvillian]

There are plenty managers who would more likely have done a better job than what Bruce has done, thing is, we'll never know.