Dr_Pangloss Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 The problem is that the past 11 months tells us that Bruce is not capable of getting this club on a winning run such that we are within our obvious goal of automatic promotion. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 25 minutes ago, TRO said: Resources have to be used wisely, resources without Nous is questionable. Aston Villa and Leicester highlighted that point....in 1980/ 2015 respectively. without doubt resources, lower the odds of failure, but its just one factor in amongst many. anyway, Fulham are not skint, Derby can compete.....Brentford have gone through a difficult time,granted. Norwich could be kicking their heels getting rid of Alex Neill, with Preston going strong. Too. just making the points its not an exact science. until the season matures its hard to tell, where we are heading. sometimes you need conkers to ride the waves. didn't Graham Taylor once say" lets keep our heads while everyone else loses theirs".....after experiencing a few set backs. Think that was Rudyard Kipling. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 1 minute ago, omariqy said: Think that was Rudyard Kipling. He does bake exceedingly good cakes though 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted September 18, 2017 Moderator Share Posted September 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, briny_ear said: The last 11 months will be forgotten in a twinkling if he gets us on a winning run and we are challenging for promotion places. And what is "best for the club" is surely that we achieve stability and get a settled squad who play welll for their manager so that they can go on such a run. It would be far better if this could be done with Bruce in post than by having to return to ground zero and start all over again with a new manager and probably another change of squad. Obviously if Bruce can't get us playing in this way then he has to go and all the negatives of yet further disruption will have to be borne. But having our third manager in 18 months after having failed to produce a convincing Championship squad will be nothing to celebrate and there will be few positives in my view. This is why I don't usually get involved with hypothetical scenarios. The last thing I want is another change of manager but we aren't going to win 4 on the spin in my view and I don't see enough progress under Bruce to think we will go up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 47 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: Thanks Trent. Without sounding pedantic, the last 11 months are irrelevant IF we got promoted this season. and that IF is as big as the pile of posts in favour of him And that heep doesnt smell of coffee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 12 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: No argument from me @TRO. I've been pretty supportive of him and I can see many reasons beyond his own failings for last years slump and a stuttering start. Ive laid them out in this thread before. I missed the Bristol City, Reading and Norwich games but imo Ive no real problem with the Hull, Middlesborough and obviously Barnsley games. The Brentford and Cardiff matches were utterly appalling though and the Cardiff game really knocked the stuffing out of me when it came to bothering to voice a supportive opinion on here of his merits. That doesn't mean I've joined in calling for his head either, I think 10/11 games in is a reasonable sample size to indicate how the season will pan out on top of that with RDM last year Xia might have shown his hand on how quickly he is willing to act too. I also think from his "I know what I have to do" type comments earlier in the season that Xia may well have set him a points total for the end of this month of around 20 points. Whatever he does now he's not getting to 20 by then and I truly think his only hope is to win all 3, miss it by 1 point on an 8 game unbeaten run and prove we've turned a corner. I think October is Wolves, Fulham and SHA away so I wouldnt say 3 wins from 3 is a reasonable expectation on current form in those games but with all due respect to Forest, Burton and Bolton it's not the same proposition and I think as someone said the other day it's time to shit or get off the pot. 15/16 points after 11 games is mid table form however it's spun, 19/20 is around the minimum I'd expect to see and he's cutting it that fine imo. 3 clean sheets is great, 9 goals conceeded in 5 games not so much though eh and therein lies the reason this thread is pretty enjoyable right now is that both sides of any argument still have some validity. I'm behind him and the team every time (I don't get the seeing the up side in a potential loss type posts) and I haven't given up on him yet mostly probably because I resigned myself to the 1 dimensional football the day he was announced but I've cut him all the slack I can for now. I want to see wins on the board. I am unsure if he will make it long term, but am equally unsure of who to replace him with. We might as well dump the fixture list, because if we can play like we know we can, we can beat everyone....sadly if we play like we did at Cardiff, we will get relegated. We have to be " Prepared" and ready for all different types of opposition and just simply look at winning the next game every time.....don't look back and don't predict.....its pointless.....every ounce of energy should be channelled at the next game only.....jump the next fence i.e win the next game and we will be champions. getting carried away or equally wallowing in anger is not the way. We need to try and be steadfast and support the team in defiance of the poor result. confidence is contagious.....but sadly so is melancholy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, omariqy said: Think that was Rudyard Kipling. Originally it was, but Graham used it too. maybe Rudyard picked it up from a bloke across the street, who knows. most things have been said by many Edited September 18, 2017 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 31 minutes ago, striker said: No Newcastle didn't blow every team away last season but in many of their games they were decidedly comfortable in getting the three points. Teams do tend to take the foot off the gas when comfortable or substitute their better players saving them for the next game. More importantly in most of the games I seen involving Newcastle last season Rafa (generally a defensive manager) did not take the Bruce approach in paying the opposition too much respect, one, if not the main reason why Newcastle were promoted last season with a squad imo not much better than Villa's. The difference was imo the respective manager's approach. I think, if directly comparing Villa and Newcastle last season then you don't have to look too far past the fact that they didn't change Manager part way through the season as being a major contributor in their success versus our outcome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Last time we were in the early dawn of a potential encouraging run we went on an away trip to Bristol and played three cb's. Bruce in that moment stole the wind from our sails. So here we are again wondering if the lessons have been learned and if this is the new dawn we have all been waiting for. The evidence suggests that it isn't. I hope he has learned, but I hoped that last time I posted in here saying how he needed to be brave and stay on the front foot and then Bristol City happened. As impossible as it seems, I genuinely don't think he is ever going to learn this lesson. It defies logic, but I think he is looking for then next excuse to go all defensive again. It is really the only consistent behavior we have seen from him as the Villa manager and I think it is only sensible to assume that the most likely thing to happen is the thing that he does most often. His post match comments are certainly not of a man who has suddenly seen the light. I'm not one to put too much stock in what a manager says to the press, but I can't ignore the implication that he seems to think that he has been doing the right thing the whole way through. So yes he has had a win and I can't deny it feels good. I am hopeful that he Bruce has seen the light and we will see more of two up top with more attacking intent, but I sure as hell am not expecting it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted September 18, 2017 Moderator Share Posted September 18, 2017 1 minute ago, bannedfromHandV said: I think, if directly comparing Villa and Newcastle last season then you don't have to look too far past the fact that they didn't change Manager part way through the season as being a major contributor in their success versus our outcome. I think that is an odd way of looking at it. It isn't that they were successful because they didn't change manager but rather they were successful so they didn't change manager. I agree stability in a club is important, crucial even for a promotion push but not to the point of sticking with the wrong manager. RDM wouldn't have taken us up if we had stuck with him and I don't think Bruce will take us up if we stick with him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted September 18, 2017 Moderator Share Posted September 18, 2017 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: Thanks Trent. Without sounding pedantic, the last 11 months are irrelevant IF we got promoted this season. Absolutely but that is another hyperthetical and a massive if. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 54 minutes ago, mattjpa said: So would you prefer him to just take it? Stay quiet and be humble about the abuse? Potato head, fat, usless, stupid, dinosaur who hasnt got a clue? F##k that. Im glad he has come out fighting, shows spirit and defiance which should hopefully disseminate through to the team. And the comment regarding the fans refers to the vocal minority who seem to think changing the manager, coaches, backroom and subsequently playing staff every time we lose 4-5 matches will yield instant success. Eventually, we are going to have to give someone the time to build our club back up and for me SB deserves that chance. IMHO Bruce has not done a good job so far and deserves being critisized for it. I would not describe him as a "modern, forward thinking manager but due to his old fashioned style (imho) a dinosaur type manager. The last time I saw a picture of him I can honestly see where the "PH" reference gets its association. He is overweight, useless? as far as getting us promoted, so far - yes. I would care to say that his inclusion of Gaby, Hutton, Bacuna, tactics (tactics? what tactics?) defensive set up and hoofball is stupid as I believe he is trying to get blood out if a stone with who we have and what we are trying to achieve All reasons for a 13th position last season and this one too. I believe he really hasnt got a clue. So put politely as an opinion, is my reasoning any more creditable than the way you suggested others are "critisizing" him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 23 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: This is why I don't usually get involved with hypothetical scenarios. The last thing I want is another change of manager but we aren't going to win 4 on the spin in my view and I don't see enough progress under Bruce to think we will go up. Next 4 games: Boro (h) - Cup Forest (h) Burton (a) Bolton (h) Extremely winnable sequence of games, if we have any plans on promotion we'd have to be looking at winning 2 of the 3 league games but I believe we are very capable of winning all 3, the cup game is a bit of a bonus match really, I'd expect both sides to make a lot of changes. I get why people see little to no hope but honestly, all you can do is hope, nothing we say and do will change or influence the outcomes so best to go in with a positive mindset and if it all falls to shit then come on here and kick off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: I think that is an odd way of looking at it. It isn't that they were successful because they didn't change manager but rather they were successful so they didn't change manager. I agree stability in a club is important, crucial even for a promotion push but not to the point of sticking with the wrong manager. RDM wouldn't have taken us up if we had stuck with him and I don't think Bruce will take us up if we stick with him. No and I agree fully, I'm not advocating having kept RDM but I don't think it's entirely fair to look at the two squads on paper and say, 'well they're about evenly matched so why did one win the league and the other finish 13th'. There was more to it, much more if you factor in the overall stability they pulled through from the season before versus us needing to revamp the entire squad, and staff and then do the latter all over again 3 months later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Absolutely but that is another hyperthetical and a massive if. hence the if in caps lock, the enormity of it isn't lost on me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 49 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: We'll play a comparable set of 4 teams every 4 matches so I fail to see the point in highlighting the previous 4 as though they're any different to the next 4, or the 4 after that and at the end of the day, you can only beat what's in front of you. I wonder, did you think Newcastle would/should be blowing away all and sundry last season too? Because guess what, they didn't, and they won the league. Except we're only beating what's in front of us once every 4 games or so. And by your logic if we continue at our rate of 6 points from 4 games that would give us 67 points by the end of the season which will leave us 9th judging by last year's table. And this is supposed to be our 'good' run. So once again a far cry from gloating material. Also by this point last season Newcastle were already in the top 2 and stayed there for the rest of the season. They certainly weren't languishing on 13th with 10 points from 8 games so I'm not sure what the comparison is. Bottom line is this run that Steve Bruce and I guess yourself are talking up is simply not good enough. 2 wins out of 8 is not good enough, period. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: IMHO Bruce has not done a good job so far and deserves being critisized for it. I would not describe him as a "modern, forward thinking manager but due to his old fashioned style (imho) a dinosaur type manager. The last time I saw a picture of him I can honestly see where the "PH" reference gets its association. He is overweight, useless? as far as getting us promoted, so far - yes. I would care to say that his inclusion of Gaby, Hutton, Bacuna, tactics (tactics? what tactics?) defensive set up and hoofball is stupid as I believe he is trying to get blood out if a stone with who we have and what we are trying to achieve All reasons for a 13th position last season and this one too. I believe he really hasnt got a clue. So put politely as an opinion, is my reasoning any more creditable than the way you suggested others are "critisizing" him? Said it before but is there really any need to get personal? Who cares what his weight is, if we're now judging people by their waistline then I'd wager that puts a lot of us in the firing line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 All we can go on is the evidence and whilst many still bang on about his amazing 'record', his record here is extremely poor, not once has he got us where we should be (minimum top 6 but given outlay and quality of the squad, it should be top 2). Absolutely nothing that he has done here suggests he is the man for the job and his inability to act sensibly to the pressure that this job rightly carries only serves to strengthen that point. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Just now, Keyblade said: Except we're only beating what's in front of us once every 4 games or so. And by your logic if we continue at our rate of 6 points from 4 games that would give us 67 points by the end of the season which will leave us 9th judging by last year's table. And this is supposed to be our 'good' run. So once again a far cry from gloating material. Also by this point last season Newcastle were already in the top 2 and stayed there for the rest of the season. They certainly weren't languishing on 13th with 10 points from 8 games so I'm not sure what the comparison is. Bottom line is this run that Steve Bruce and I guess yourself are talking up is simply not good enough. 2 wins out of 8 is not good enough, period. No, 2 wins out of 8 is not but 3 wins and 3 draws out of the last 6 is. Stats can be pushed and pulled in a million different directions to suit any one persons argument but if recent results are to be believed as a true representation of us then we're heading in the right direction. Will all depend on what team shows up Saturday, and, to a lesser extent tomorrow night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 *Sorry for uber long post, but here goes* For me, Steve's 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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