Steve Bruce

[Keyblade]

3 hours ago, briny_ear said:

Must say though, it makes for a great CV:

”Almost got Walsall into the Division 1 promotion places.”

I would have thought the main problem with getting him to Villa would be the queue of other more prestigious clubs wanting to snap him up.

As opposed to Bruce with his impressive CV who failed to promote us twice.

[TRO]

5 hours ago, AntrimBlack said:

A very strange point. It is a failure if you do not hit a specified target. Many of those clubs may have aspired to particular targets, with some success.

 As for your last sentence, we did not have a target, only hope, and it was a success from that point of view.

I was a sales manager, when I was working and most of the time, I hit my targets.....but when I didn't, I didn't get sacked.

We sat down, I discussed with the powers that be, and devised a plan that was monitored to ensure the objective was met, next time.

Many times in those rare meetings my overall management and improvements in general were taken in to consideration and mitigation was in evidence....often, events outside my control was mooted and elements where i could have done better was also recorded, and focus agreed.

Stability, was a hugely recognised factor, that is not to be confused with complacency....all sorts of planning charts were drawn up like SWOT lists etc.....nothing really innovative or outlandish.....but mainly centred around monitorisation and not letting things drift or slip.

Common sense and revisiting old values, tried and trusted methods.....(the wheel doesn't always have to be reinvented)

It worked.....I retired after the best part of 20 years.

Edited June 14, 2018 by TRO

[USA_Villa]

With the Hutton signing I forsee a worrying trend. Are we heading down the same shit less money route?

[pintpotvilla]

7 minutes ago, USA_Villa said:

With the Hutton signing I forsee a worrying trend. Are we heading down the same shit less money route?

Do you see the upside of anything? This news obviously means things are not as bad as first thought. Blimey last week apparantly we were heading for Armegeddon. This is POSITIVE news even if you don't like the player it still means we are planning for next season not just worrying how we pay the tax bill!

Edited June 14, 2018 by pintpotvilla

[TRO]

1 hour ago, villianusa said:

Yet, if you are tactically poor then you are more likely to be out of position when defending (i.e Hutton in playoff final). If he had been tactically good he wouldn't have defended poorly. From my coaching experience if you get your tactics right, you can make even poorer players look good. You see this in cup games when lower teams beat teams from much higher division when they get their tactics right on the night. Chelsea parking the bus to win the Champions League. I know there are other things that come into it, but for me tactics are very high on the list.

If you are in the right place at the right time it is much easier to do your job, this is in offensive and defensive positions. This comes down to tactics and position awareness.

For me the first half of the play-offs showed it things up badly. If the tactics were a long ball to Grabban and for him to hold it up and lay it off to teammates then it worked very badly. If it was for pretty much every long pass to be received by Fulham then he was tactically strong. I don't believe it was the latter. 

I have supported Bruce and continue to do so, but he has either got his tactics wrong on occasions, or his player's aren't listen to him, or they aren't good enough to get the job done. Most of the team are international players at some level, so they should have been good enough, so it does leave me with questions.

I just slightly disagree with your view of how much, it is responsible for the end product....but respect it.

for instance.....Hutton, has lapses of positional concentration(IMO), his overall game is good....that to me is not poor tactics at play, its him and his ability. John Terry, great player ( overall)missed a header against Ryan Manning QPR ....nothing to do with tactics, poor play at that moment....but in general top player.

Games morph all the time, its dynamic, not static......I accept teams that are well organised can make an individual look better, but they still have to make the correct judgments during a game.....coaching and Tactical awareness are important, but they will not save a poor player, i think you have a tendency to over value that.

Let me give you another for instance.

A centre forward who is not blessed with aerial ability and wastes plenty of good crosses.....all the tactics in the world will not help him beat the Centre Half in the air, He can do it or he can't....I accept in such circumstances that it maybe folly to keep pumping balls in and that a tactical change in approach should be sought...., but we are now missing an opportunity to score a headed goal...and as they say, goals change games....so the argument could be, the tactics are not wrong, the player you bought was.

I thought Steve Bruce had not got it quite right with the types of players he signed ( good players, too samey for me) that is being observant more than critical, I don't know how hard it is....Tactically naive, no not for me.

I understand, we all have our own views and I respect yours.

Ps i think in the main teams from the lower divisions make up the difference in MOTIVATION as opposed to your view on tactics....They rise to the occasion.

pps but its all opinions, I am not saying you are wrong, its fine margins of opinion sometimes.

Edited June 14, 2018 by TRO

[villa89]

1 hour ago, USA_Villa said:

 Are we heading down the same shit less money route?

Yes. Bruce couldn't get us promoted last season with the highest wage bill in the league. Now we'll lose Grealish, Johntsone, Terry, Snodgrass and maybe a couple more and have little to no money to replace them. I fail to see how Bruce will be able to make us competitive next season if he stays, which looks very likely. 

Edited June 14, 2018 by villa89

[Demitri_C]

55 minutes ago, villa89 said:

Yes. Bruce couldn't get us promoted last season with the highest wage bill in the league. Now we'll lose Grealish, Johntsone, Terry, Snodgrass and maybe a couple more and have little to no money to replace them. I fail to see how Bruce will be able to make us competitive next season if he stays, which looks very likely. 

We are stronger with bruce in current circumstances than without I feel. 

[Czechlad]

I don't think there is a better option than Bruce at the moment, and this is coming from someone who wanted Bruce sacked. 

Hopefully we can retain the majority of our squad and give promotion one more go. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, villa89 said:

Yes. Bruce couldn't get us promoted last season with the highest wage bill in the league. Now we'll lose Grealish, Johntsone, Terry, Snodgrass and maybe a couple more and have little to no money to replace them. I fail to see how Bruce will be able to make us competitive next season if he stays, which looks very likely. 

ha ha.....there's the surprise.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

Yep, and now we are broke, wont be pushing for promotion next season (apparently) and will be lucky if we don't go into administration (apparently).

Promotion was everything last season and we failed.

so, do we all dig a hole...

or grit our teeth and fight back.

its a very, very annoying set back.

but we do one or two things as a team next season we wallow in self pity and drag our arses in to every game.....or we remember the pee we have had taken out of us come out fighting and win every ball.

I have seen this before, with the right character employed, it could have the very reverse that everyone is expecting.....and don't under estimate expectation it can be the biggest burden to carry.

Next season, could be a big surprise, for the better.

ps when Gray, Deehan and Gidman left,in one summer...... we thought we was dead.....we actually went on to better things....but we need that fighting spirit.

Edited June 14, 2018 by TRO

[romavillan]

18 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

We are stronger with bruce in current circumstances than without I feel. 

I'm not totally convinced either way but I tend to think that Bruce's weak points will be exaggerated further having less resources to play with. I'd expect him to keep us well organised off the ball but I can see us struggling even more at the other aspects of the game and without a few star turns I don't see any evidence that he can put out a side that can keep the ball, or threaten in any other way than on the counter. Before the cracks often got papered over by some individual skill on the flanks, or from Jack making something etc. Looks like he will not have that luxury.

Managers that can get a team playing nice football that is more than the sum of it's parts are about, I struggle to see Bruce doing it to be fair, he couldn't with money to spunk on wages and transfers. Why is he likely to do it now? 

[romavillan]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

so, do we all dig a hole.

or grit our teeth and fight back.

its a very, very annoying set back.

but we do one or two things as a team next season we wallow in self pity and drag our arses in to every game.....or we remember the pee we have had taken out of us come out fighting and win every ball.

I have seen this before, with the right character employed, it could have the very reverse that everyone is expecting.....and don't under estimate expectation it can be the biggest burden to carry.

Next season, could be a big surprise, for the better.

ps when Gray, Deehan and Gidman left,in one summer...... we thought we was dead.....we actually went on to better things....but we need that fighting spirit.

Of course we have to go for it again, the problem is that the man responsible for us wasting a great opportunity to go up is still in charge of getting us up. We were second after a great run then went off the boil, then it was back on with the win over wolves, then we fell apart, then we beat cardiff and couldn't capitalize again. The bad start, the horrible spell before/around xmas. There were multiple opportunities for us to do it, but we didn't.

Now we have to rebuild a team on a shoestring to go for it again, he couldn't get us playing well enough consistently enough with a better squad. What's going to change with a worse squad that means we'll go up?

[bannedfromHandV]

If SB stays this season I think we'll have a lot of very different views in 12 months time. 

Everyone's stating that the reduced resources will make things difficult for him, as though they wouldn't be the same for anyone else we could hire, less resources would be detrimental for any Manager, its not exclusive to SB. 

Some people seem to think hes some kind of chequebook Manager too which I don't agree with, okay sure, he had wages to play with last season but he still assembled the team for practically nothing in terms of transfer fees using his network and contacts. 

I'm not saying we'll have players of the calibre of Terry, Snodgrass etc this season but I fancy him to still assemble a competitive side with what looks like being next to no budget. 

At which point, and if we have a solid season, I think people might finally accept he's not the moron they seem to think he is. 

Edited June 14, 2018 by bannedfromHandV

[villianusa]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Let me give you another for instance.

A centre forward who is not blessed with aerial ability and wastes plenty of good crosses.....all the tactics in the world will not help him beat the Centre Half in the air, He can do it or he can't....I accept in such circumstances that it maybe folly to keep pumping balls in and that a tactical change in approach should be sought...., but we are now missing an opportunity to score a headed goal...and as they say, goals change games....so the argument could be, the tactics are not wrong, the player you bought was.

I thought Steve Bruce had not got it quite right with the types of players he signed ( good players, too samey for me) that is being observant more than critical, I don't know how hard it is....Tactically naive, no not for me.

I understand, we all have our own views and I respect yours.

Ps i think in the main teams from the lower divisions make up the difference in MOTIVATION as opposed to your view on tactics....They rise to the occasion.

pps but its all opinions, I am not saying you are wrong, its fine margins of opinion sometimes.

@TRO I truly respect your level-headed approach to the forums and a pleasure to read your comments.

To your point that I have bolded, to me that would be poor tactics by the manager if his team sent in multiple crosses game after game. I disagree again that tactics couldn't change that. In patterns of play, the players will have triggers that make them move into certain areas of the field to either receive a pass, make space for a teammate, to get on the end of a cross, etc... If a coach did have a forward who wasn't great on crosses then his initial position and the trigger can be adapted to allow the player to create space for himself that may give him a greater opportunity to beat a defender in the air. If the coach wants a lot of balls crossed into the box and he purchased that player, then in my opinion he bought the wrong player for his tactics.

There is a difference between team tactics and individual tactics during a game, and I believe both Bruce and the players got them wrong during the season. I am hoping there is less of it next year and we can still challenge for promotion.

I remember reading Andy Gray's book Four, Four Two, he mentioned in there that when the winger got into a certain area of the field and put his head down to cross the ball, it was the trigger for Brian Little and himself to make their runs into their designated area (God, I miss those players). From watching Villa from a  distance, I don't think Bruce does much of that or the players aren't listening. I look at the lack of support for the player on the ball and it doesn't look like they have a first passing option, let alone a second or third. For instance, Grealish should have a first, second, third, and possible fourth passing option. Honestly, I see him so often looking for someone on the same wavelength to pass to I can't believe it is practiced much.

I agree with you  that Bruce gets unfairly criticized at times, but I feel player selection and tactics have been wrong at times, and I feel that cost us automatic promotion along with too many  individual errors from players.

As you said, I don't believe either of us are wrong, but differ on he level that tactics plays in success.

 

[bannedfromHandV]

2 hours ago, Keyblade said:

As opposed to Bruce with his impressive CV who failed to promote us twice.

Mourinho failed to win the league twice with United, he must be a failure too right? 

[DCJonah]

8 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

If SB stays this season I think we'll have a lot of very different views in 12 months time. 

Everyone's stating that the reduced resources will make things difficult for him, as though they wouldn't be the same for anyone else we could hire, less resources would be detrimental for any Manager, its not exclusive to SB. 

Some people seem to think hes some kind of chequebook Manager too which I don't agree with, okay sure, he had wages to play with last season but he still assembled the team for practically nothing in terms of transfer fees using his network and contacts. 

I'm not saying we'll have players of the calibre of Terry, Snodgrass etc this season but I fancy him to still assemble a competitive side with what looks like being next to no budget. 

At which point, and if we have a solid season, I think people might finally accept he's not the moron they seem to think he is. 

So these are the expectations now. What on earth is a solid season? 

What an easy job he now has. No expectations, loads of excuses and fans always jumping to his defence. He must be over the moon he has managed to end up here. 

Bruce going into his 3rd playing season in charge is a true indication of the mess we have become. 

Another wasted year then. Excellent. 

[DCJonah]

5 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Mourinho failed to win the league twice with United, he must be a failure too right? 

What a rubbish comparison. 

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, villianusa said:

@TRO I truly respect your level-headed approach to the forums and a pleasure to read your comments.

To your point that I have bolded, to me that would be poor tactics by the manager if his team sent in multiple crosses game after game. I disagree again that tactics couldn't change that. In patterns of play, the players will have triggers that make them move into certain areas of the field to either receive a pass, make space for a teammate, to get on the end of a cross, etc... If a coach did have a forward who wasn't great on crosses then his initial position and the trigger can be adapted to allow the player to create space for himself that may give him a greater opportunity to beat a defender in the air. If the coach wants a lot of balls crossed into the box and he purchased that player, then in my opinion he bought the wrong player for his tactics.

There is a difference between team tactics and individual tactics during a game, and I believe both Bruce and the players got them wrong during the season. I am hoping there is less of it next year and we can still challenge for promotion.

I remember reading Andy Gray's book Four, Four Two, he mentioned in there that when the winger got into a certain area of the field and put his head down to cross the ball, it was the trigger for Brian Little and himself to make their runs into their designated area (God, I miss those players). From watching Villa from a  distance, I don't think Bruce does much of that or the players aren't listening. I look at the lack of support for the player on the ball and it doesn't look like they have a first passing option, let alone a second or third. For instance, Grealish should have a first, second, third, and possible fourth passing option. Honestly, I see him so often looking for someone on the same wavelength to pass to I can't believe it is practiced much.

I agree with you  that Bruce gets unfairly criticized at times, but I feel player selection and tactics have been wrong at times, and I feel that cost us automatic promotion along with too many  individual errors from players.

As you said, I don't believe either of us are wrong, but differ on he level that tactics plays in success.

 

I think we agree, more than we think....we just use different terms.

I was very close to Andy for about 2 years in his hey day, so I know much about him.....These guys had it in them, the coaching was not that sophisticated, it was ok, but they also worked things out for themselves.

I don't want to prolong this , but you can make runs at the right time and all that, but you still have to have the ability, composure etc to convert.....you have to beat your man.

Andy once confided in me that he had no where near the ability of Brian Little, during a conversation, naturally he was my pal, so I was siding with his ability, but he was having none of it.....He admitted  that his edge lay in his timing and lion hearted will to win.....Brian was oozing natural ability.

I think you will find we have a slightly different interpretation of what Tactics is and when you sift through it, we are on the same wave length

[villa89]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

We are stronger with bruce in current circumstances than without I feel. 

Worryingly that could be true. Bruce is the right manager to make us difficult beat even with a much weaker squad. The problem of course is that it implies we will be ~midtable trying to get a playoff spot. Also you could say that Bruce is the right manager to get the best out of less skillful/talented players which no doubt we will be in the market for as funds will be tight. 

[sidcow]

PLEASE GOD MAKE IT STOP.