Steve Bruce

[Dave J]

7 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Good post, because I genuinely feel some people think alot of the criticism is out of "dislike" for him.

During the phase of the continuous "not have millions to spend" and "Mass hysteria" repeatedley etc was probably the only time I had a phase of despising him. lol

I agree that it's kind of hard to dislike him - he comes over as a jovial, affable human being and coming from the North east I suspect he has a deep entrenched work ethic about him.

this said I can't bring myself to say that I think he should stay if promotion is not achieved - I would wish him luck in the future and wave cheerio 

[srsmithusa]

I don’t dislike him at all, he’s done a lot to improve us.  But I think he has made glaring errors and a better tactician/manager would have us higher, given the same transfer backing.  It had nothing to do with liking him or not.  I don’t even know him

in fact I would assert that none of us know him.  You like the “him” you have constructed in your mind, based on his public persona (persona literally means mask). For all you know, he bites the heads off live baby chickens in his bed at night.  And for all any that dislike him know, he bottle feeds orphaned bunnies back to health.  

Too much is made of liking or not.  I have talked at some length with Paul Lambert, in his office at BH.  Found him a great guy, I don’t want him back for our manager.   

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

I don’t dislike him at all, he’s done a lot to improve us.  But I think he has made glaring errors and a better tactician/manager would have us higher, given the same transfer backing.  It had nothing to do with liking him or not.  I don’t even know him

in fact I would assert that none of us know him.  You like the “him” you have constructed in your mind, based on his public persona (persona literally means mask). For all you know, he bites the heads off live baby chickens in his bed at night.  And for all any that dislike him know, he bottle feeds orphaned bunnies back to health.  

Too much is made of liking or not.  I have talked at some length with Paul Lambert, in his office at BH.  Found him a great guy, I don’t want him back for our manager.   

Could you understand him?

we don't have to meet everyone to have a like factor about them....i know folk that have and i trust their judgment.

Back in October 2017' i wanted him to improve my team and he has......i like him for that too.

I don't quite get your first paragraph.....unless you expected more improvement than what we have......I guess that is your prerogative, but I'm happy with the play offs after all said and done its only what Wagner achieved and plenty want him as manager.

[srsmithusa]

You can understand what you think he is.   That construct is one you made.  It may be more or less right.

i think another manager would have instilled more discipline early, rotated starts more judiciously, analyzed tactics more thoroughly, made adjustments more quickly, motivated players more consistently, aligned tactics with formation and personnel more strategically.  I think we would be comfortably solid in top 2.  Which of us is right?  We’ll never  know with any certainty.  

But whether or not we like him will have nothing to do with it.  

[briny_ear]

5 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

I don’t dislike him at all, he’s done a lot to improve us.  But I think he has made glaring errors and a better tactician/manager would have us higher, given the same transfer backing.  It had nothing to do with liking him or not.  I don’t even know him

in fact I would assert that none of us know him.  You like the “him” you have constructed in your mind, based on his public persona (persona literally means mask). For all you know, he bites the heads off live baby chickens in his bed at night.  And for all any that dislike him know, he bottle feeds orphaned bunnies back to health.  

Too much is made of liking or not.  I have talked at some length with Paul Lambert, in his office at BH.  Found him a great guy, I don’t want him back for our manager.   

That must have been a weird experience. I could only ever pick up about one word in five of what Lambert was saying. 

 

[sheepyvillian]

7 hours ago, TRO said:

Could you understand him?

we don't have to meet everyone to have a like factor about them....i know folk that have and i trust their judgment.

Back in October 2017' i wanted him to improve my team and he has......i like him for that too.

I don't quite get your first paragraph.....unless you expected more improvement than what we have......I guess that is your prerogative, but I'm happy with the play offs after all said and done its only what Wagner achieved and plenty want him as manager.

Wagner took a team to the premier league, who hadn't set foot in it before. The premier league is where Villa should be.

[Stevo985]

19 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Good post, because I genuinely feel some people think alot of the criticism is out of "dislike" for him.

But it obviously is.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of the criticism is absolutely valid and deserved. 

But there is clearly a lot of criticism that comes from certain people's dislike of the man or his supposed management style.

[Stevo985]

19 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Good post, because I genuinely feel some people think alot of the criticism is out of "dislike" for him.

But it obviously is.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of the criticism is absolutely valid and deserved. 

But there is clearly a lot of criticism that comes from certain people's dislike of the man or his supposed management style.

[AntrimBlack]

2 hours ago, briny_ear said:

That must have been a weird experience. I could only ever pick up about one word in five of what Lambert was saying. 

 

Perhaps srs is originally from Scotland? 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

But it obviously is.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of the criticism is absolutely valid and deserved. 

But there is clearly a lot of criticism that comes from certain people's dislike of the man or his supposed management style.

Isn't this contradictory mate?

"His supposed management style" nullifies the statement.

That's not a dislike for him personally is it?

[Stevo985]

8 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Isn't this contradictory mate?

"His supposed management style" nullifies the statement.

That's not a dislike for him personally is it?

It was a separate point, and the word supposed is key. I think a lot of people have decided on what they think his management style is and then just default to token criticisms even though they're not true.

Like the stuff about he doesn't ever play kids or pay attention to the reserves. 

It's nonsense. But people revert back to it because they've just formed an opinion ages ago and won't stray from it.

[srsmithusa]

I will forever be baffled by the mental gymnastics some will go to, to protect this man.  

Call me hysterical 

[a m ole]

20 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

I will forever be baffled by the mental gymnastics some will go to, to protect this man.  

Call me hysterical 

protect or defend?

He comes in for a lot of fair and a lot of unfair criticism.

[bannedfromHandV]

10 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

I don’t dislike him at all, he’s done a lot to improve us.  But I think he has made glaring errors and a better tactician/manager would have us higher, given the same transfer backing.  It had nothing to do with liking him or not.  I don’t even know him

in fact I would assert that none of us know him.  You like the “him” you have constructed in your mind, based on his public persona (persona literally means mask). For all you know, he bites the heads off live baby chickens in his bed at night.  And for all any that dislike him know, he bottle feeds orphaned bunnies back to health.  

Too much is made of liking or not.  I have talked at some length with Paul Lambert, in his office at BH.  Found him a great guy, I don’t want him back for our manager.   

Edit - pointless, ignore me

Edited April 13, 2018 by bannedfromHandV

[villabromsgrove]

It surprises me that we feel we have to preface our comments about Steve Bruce by saying "I like him" or "he's a decent bloke" in case we're accused of dislike. I do it myself when I post.

Bruce should be judged on his abilities as a manager, not on being a "good bloke". I've expressed my views a few times and I'm still of the view that SB is not the man to take Villa forward.

Bruce has adopted an underdog mentality over a number of years because of the teams he has managed. When you manage teams like Wigan, Sunderland, Hull and other similar clubs it's natural to develop a philosophy that allows you to survive rather than dominate.

Bruce admitted some time back that managing Villa was a huge job and his biggest job by miles! Unfortunately in my opinion he hasn't seen fit (or been able?) to change that "underdog" style of play. We play percentage football. The keeper kicks it long or rolls it out to a full back who kicks it long. We're not aiming for our smallish striker, we're waiting for the opposition's bigger defenders to head it back into our midfield area. This is where it's about percentages .... how many times can we win the second ball? If we do we try to feed it out to the wing and hope to swing it in, where again we hope for a bit of luck with a Villa player occasionally getting on the end of something. How many headed balls did we see against Cardiff the other night? The midfield area was often a danger to low flying aircraft! We're not a particularly big or physical side so each headed ball is a lottery ticket, rather than a planned progression.

After the number of games SB has been in charge for, I hoped for some visual acknowledgement that Villa usually have slightly better players than the opposition. Instead of which the opposite seems to be happening. How many times on Tuesday night did you shake your head at a Villa player's inability to hit a ten metre pass accurately? Our coaching must be more about lumping it and winning second ball, than how we use the slightly better ability of our players to win games.

My view of SB's ability as Villa's manager is probably unpopular, but I can only say what I genuinely believe. Steve Bruce is not the right manager for Villa.  

Edited April 13, 2018 by villabromsgrove

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, srsmithusa said:

I will forever be baffled by the mental gymnastics some will go to, to protect this man.  

Call me hysterical 

I should clarify.  There are some very good reasons to think he's a good manager for us.  We are certainly harder to beat, our roster has improved considerably, if there was division between british and french players - it's gone, the players are conducting themselves in a more professional fashion, we are in line for playoffs.  There are also some very good reasons to think he has made some very big mistakes and a different manager could very well have done better.  I won't try to list those here because i've done it often enough and i'm on my way to a meeting in a few minutes.  What annoys me is when other people try to minimize the legitimate complaints by deflecting blame , by calling the critics hysterical, or unstable, or postulating and agreeing that we just don't like the man personally. 

[A'Villan]

10 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

I should clarify.  There are some very good reasons to think he's a good manager for us.  We are certainly harder to beat, our roster has improved considerably, if there was division between british and french players - it's gone, the players are conducting themselves in a more professional fashion, we are in line for playoffs.  There are also some very good reasons to think he has made some very big mistakes and a different manager could very well have done better.  I won't try to list those here because i've done it often enough and i'm on my way to a meeting in a few minutes.  What annoys me is when other people try to minimize the legitimate complaints by deflecting blame , by calling the critics hysterical, or unstable, or postulating and agreeing that we just don't like the man personally. 

In an on the fence way, this is similar to my thoughts on Bruce. There are reasons for both confidence and doubt.

I like what @villabromsgrove has stated above, and agree for the most part. I don't think we are the best coached team going around, or to put it another way, we are a team of superstars rather than a superstar team in this division.

You simply cannot deny the quality of playing staff at Bruce's disposal, he has the best of the best for this division. I mean we have a bench of players who have been elite in the championship for years. Defence is the only section where that is disputable. We even have players who have dominated the division who can't get on the bench, albeit for disciplinary reasons, we have the option of playing him, we simply don't need to.

So, why am I on the fence, instead of wanting Bruce out? It has been my stance without much fluctuation since the start of this season. Bruce would have enough nous to get us through to a playoff position and perhaps, if promoted, survival in the Premier League.

There is also the fact that due to our decline, I'm not sure the reality of how far we have fallen hits home to some of Bruce's critics, we are simply not in a position where by we attract someone guaranteed to provide a more adept approach than Bruce. There are pros and cons with all managers. Look at the criticism Mourinho gets for his treatment of others and tactical approach, or Guardiola of recent for capitulating against Liverpool and having a questionable approach against Klopp's sides.

Who the bloody hell else do you want them to appoint? Wenger? Oh that's right Arsenal are a shambles!

So to get back on point, I think some are taking the good work done by Bruce for granted. He has turned the ship around where a champions league winning manager couldn't. The players that a different manager might do better with, might not be here if it weren't for Bruce (I think we would of attracted similar quality in any case).

I would love for us to appoint the next well rounded genius football coach but I fail to see who would be doing such a better job and why, despite Bruce's obvious flaws and if we're not promoted, shortcomings.

[briny_ear]

I think one of the big problems for this whole discussion is that much of the criticism of Bruce is made by means of comparing him with an imaginary/mythical/notional manager who would have done better with the squad and resources available.

Thus: "Steve Bruce has done well but he hasn't done as well as that imaginary/mythical/notional manager would have done with the same squad and resources."

Who is this imaginary/mythical/notional manager? I have no idea but when suggestions are sometimes made, they are either horrific, for example, Neil Warnock (if he became our manager I would happily give up supporting Aston Villa in favour of the more enjoyable activity of collecting raw sewage with my bare hands) or impractical (e.g. Wagner, who as I understand it, actually had the chance but turned us down - maybe because he knew he may well founder on the challenge of the complete mess that Villa was a couple of years ago)

Steve Bruce would not have been my first choice for the job but, in his favour, he (a) took on the job; (b ) through squad changes and coaching challenged and began to turn around the alarming lack of focus intensity and will to win that our first teams had been showing for 2 or 3 seasons (remember 2015/6 and the start of 2016/7 when we more or less stopped winning matches?); and (c) achieved a creditable number of wins and a lot of goals this season and got us into a playoff position which at the end of the 2015/6 season looked the remotest of remote possibilities.

It's not perfect. We should have done better this season and in particular the failures in four recent very winnable matches have been extremely disappointing and show there is still work to do, but unless something goes disastrously wrong we are in with a shout of promotion.

Will this be enough for his critics? No, because he is still being compared with that imaginary/mythical/notional manager who would have done better.

[supermon]

7 hours ago, briny_ear said:

That must have been a weird experience. I could only ever pick up about one word in five of what Lambert was saying. 

 

Surely you must have picked up the words where he said 

"I thought we were excellent"

Regardless of the actual performance 

[srsmithusa]

22 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

I think one of the big problems for this whole discussion is that much of the criticism of Bruce is made by means of comparing him with an imaginary/mythical/notional manager who would have done better with the squad and resources available.

Thus: "Steve Bruce has done well but he hasn't done as well as that imaginary/mythical/notional manager would have done with the same squad and resources."

Who is this imaginary/mythical/notional manager? I have no idea but when suggestions are sometimes made, they are either horrific, for example, Neil Warnock (if he became our manager I would happily give up supporting Aston Villa in favour of the more enjoyable activity of collecting raw sewage with my bare hands) or impractical (e.g. Wagner, who as I understand it, actually had the chance but turned us down - maybe because he knew he may well founder on the challenge of the complete mess that Villa was a couple of years ago)

Steve Bruce would not have been my first choice for the job but, in his favour, he (a) took on the job; (b ) through squad changes and coaching challenged and began to turn around the alarming lack of focus intensity and will to win that our first teams had been showing for 2 or 3 seasons (remember 2015/6 and the start of 2016/7 when we more or less stopped winning matches?); and (c) achieved a creditable number of wins and a lot of goals this season and got us into a playoff position which at the end of the 2015/6 season looked the remotest of remote possibilities.

It's not perfect. We should have done better this season and in particular the failures in four recent very winnable matches have been extremely disappointing and show there is still work to do, but unless something goes disastrously wrong we are in with a shout of promotion.

Will this be enough for his critics? No, because he is still being compared with that imaginary/mythical/notional manager who would have done better.

you are at least partly right.  "we should have done better" I completely agree with.  Would Pep, or Jose, or Arsene, or Japp, or Dean (Smith), Olaf, or Claudio, done better?  I will never know.  You will never know.

I'll even say that Bruce would have done better if he had rotated aging and tired players more intelligently.  Bruce would have done better if he had consistently played a less "safety first" mindset (given his roster).  Bruce would have done better if he had played a tactic and a line-up that matched.  (not so many high balls to Hogan or so many through balls to Davis as a simple example).  But if we can't suggest a hypothetical that could do better, we get bogged down in 'would that specific name from the list above have done" the three things I just listed.  (and quite possibly many many more given that limited list." 

So, while I agree that we're comparing Bruce to an unknown. The reality is we have no choice but to do that.  

Although I might argue that those supporting him are doing the same.  They are comparing what he has done to what they suspect some other manager might have done and deciding he's doing better than their imaginary scapegoat.... not as well as my imaginary hero.