Steve Bruce

[terrytini]

45 minutes ago, TRO said:

Imo......whatever the work required to fix us, had not manifested itself when the season had started.

I would imagine this summer, despite the possible changes in personnel, we will be going back to work, with less major repair from demise as last season, so it is more reasonable to expect a more solid pre season.

but yes i agree pre-season is important.

I don’t want the circular debate again, and find myself very well disposed towards Bruce and the idea of him staying......but......

I maintain a different view....October 2016 to August 2017 was plenty, plenty of time for what was wrong/ needed to manifest itself.....if Bruce still hadn’t seen it I’m afraid that would be a huge indictment of him.....everyone else could.

But he did see it, has said so, and thought caution the best approach, and has said so.

He was wrong in my view, I said so at the time as did others, and I maintain it cost us, possibly dearly.

But..........he may have been right.....who knows......had he adopted a more attacking, positive approach, we could’ve repeated the previous season.

It wasn’t identifying the issues that was the problem pre, and early, season, it was a continuation of Bruce’s defensive approach....(no longer a matter of debate as to whether he had such an approach as he is on record as acknowledging it)....this plus a few baffling selections ( such as Gabby, the omission of Albert etc), and injuries.

He tweaked that approach, played more creative players, played - in most games, but sadly not all - a deliberately more offensive style ( the quality of which is not considered acceptable by some fans), and we got more out of the squad.

Shoukd he have gone for it from the off ? Nobody knows whether it would have worked.

However in my view since then results stack up, and I agree with your point that ( in the unlikely event we keep him) next season we could reasonably be expected to perform better right from the off.

 

[Eastie]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Imo......whatever the work required to fix us, had not manifested itself when the season had started.

I would imagine this summer, despite the possible changes in personnel, we will be going back to work, with less major repair from demise as last season, so it is more reasonable to expect a more solid pre season.

but yes i agree pre-season is important.

Not sure on that - I think we will lose half our team if we fail to go up and major changes will be required either way . 

[AntrimBlack]

I think that Bruce's innate caution, coupled with his failure to get consistent performances from his team during his tenure, to me, means that he has failed, having been given sufficient time, and therefor must go.

I will be mightily disappointed if the management decide to give him more time after this season.

[heffoman]

3 hours ago, Eastie said:

Not sure on that - I think we will lose half our team if we fail to go up and major changes will be required either way . 

Realisticly I think even if we some how manage to go up we'll lose half our team. And most of what we have left isnt good enough for the premiership.

Of our loanees we might keep Johnstone but it will cost us. I think we shouldnt keep snodgrass as he will struggle in the premiership. Sadly the same with Terry. Grabbadon struggled to start in the premiership so do we take a gamble on buying him.

Jedinak to some extent and Whelan to every extent will need replacing. We also have massive problems up front so a new striker is needed.

So I could see us needing maybe a keeper, definetly two good centre backs, a left back, maybe a right back, a defensive midfielder and a striker at minimum. Thats 7 players already.

[Zatman]

10 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

John got the text that his favourite exotic club is doing a 2 for 1 offer tonight 

[TRO]

5 hours ago, Eastie said:

Not sure on that - I think we will lose half our team if we fail to go up and major changes will be required either way . 

We lost Deehan , Gray and Gidman.....and thought the world was ending, we signed, Withe, Swain and someone else, can't remember.

no Armageddon.

have faith.

We have dumped the BMH poison.....let things roll.

 

[DaveAV1]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

We lost Deehan , Gray and Gidman.....and thought the world was ending, we signed, Withe, Swain and someone else, can't remember.

no Armageddon.

have faith.

We have dumped the BMH poison.....let things roll.

 

We had Sir Ron Saunders as manager. 

[Tomaszk]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

We lost Deehan , Gray and Gidman.....and thought the world was ending, we signed, Withe, Swain and someone else, can't remember.

no Armageddon.

have faith.

We have dumped the BMH poison.....let things roll.

 

Steve Bruce wasn't around then.

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

We lost Deehan , Gray and Gidman.....and thought the world was ending, we signed, Withe, Swain and someone else, can't remember.

no Armageddon.

have faith.

We have dumped the BMH poison.....let things roll.

 

Des? Morley ? Evans? To name a few 

 

Dave Geddis? 

Remember thst Blues game - could have had a hat trick but for the width of the cross bar 

[A'Villan]

9 hours ago, Eastie said:

Not sure on that - I think we will lose half our team if we fail to go up and major changes will be required either way . 

This is why club culture and pre-season preparations will determine, in part, the strength of a teams season.

Tactics come and go relevant to the situation and their success. Team commitment, work ethic and quality of preparation are paramount to cohesion and gaining an edge over the opposition, and are timeless. Perhaps (or undoubtedly) something our club has been lacking for some years from the top down.

Results in pre-season don't mean anything, they really don't. What matters is the procedures in place to ensure the team is ready for the challenges ahead.

As a club we have been through an absolute nightmare in regard to this for some time.

Thankfully I think we have a very intelligent and out of the box thinker in Xia, who will have a bit more competency than his predecessor, which will enable the team to function smoother when it needs to.

Bruce also must be credited for employing a number of players with the right skills and culture to restore some professionalism and character to the club. I think this will carry over in the event of a change in manager, or dramatic overhaul of playing staff. Which would be a huge win for the club considering the rot we've had.

Just thought I'd add whilst on the topic of major changes, apparently McCormack isn't the only one of our more expensive purchases to have some off field distractions (for lack of a better expression). I hope when we spend big we are looking at character as equally important to ability is all I have to say. Whilst not being problematic by any means (as far as I'm aware) I wonder if performances have justified the purchase cost. I would say these distractions would inhibit and hinder potential, so I'm not sure it's a desirable part of the package when spending that much.

[Demitri_C]

One interesting statistic with Bruce is should we avoid defeat against Derby, no side has done the double over us since we have been in the championship

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

One interesting statistic with Bruce is should we avoid defeat against Derby, no side has done the double over us since we have been in the championship

I honestly wished this gave me renewed hope that we can navigate the play offs but sadly it doesn't 

[Demitri_C]

6 minutes ago, Dave J said:

I honestly wished this gave me renewed hope that we can navigate the play offs but sadly it doesn't 

The only thing I would say, is the top sides have all failed to beat us home so we have shown we can beat the best at home

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

On 4/11/2018 at 02:05, rodders0223 said:

He has warmed on me. He has talked some shite, boy has he talked some shite, but he wants to win, he wants to succeed.

I like that he kicks every ball.

I like that he pumps his fist at every goal.

I like that he rages at every sloppy pass, every mistake, he screams at players to get tight, press, push up, win second balls.

I like that I can see how much it means to him and it isn't just lip service.

Games like today I can smile as he walks off the pitch and start again to have a small belief we will go somewhere.

 

 

 

I just wish he wasn't a bit of a shit manager.

Good post, because I genuinely feel some people think alot of the criticism is out of "dislike" for him.

During the phase of the continuous "not have millions to spend" and "Mass hysteria" repeatedley etc was probably the only time I had a phase of despising him. lol

[striker]

21 hours ago, heffoman said:

Realisticly I think even if we some how manage to go up we'll lose half our team. And most of what we have left isnt good enough for the premiership.

Of our loanees we might keep Johnstone but it will cost us. I think we shouldnt keep snodgrass as he will struggle in the premiership. Sadly the same with Terry. Grabbadon struggled to start in the premiership so do we take a gamble on buying him.

Jedinak to some extent and Whelan to every extent will need replacing. We also have massive problems up front so a new striker is needed.

So I could see us needing maybe a keeper, definetly two good centre backs, a left back, maybe a right back, a defensive midfielder and a striker at minimum. Thats 7 players already.

I was running it over in my head before the Grealish goal against Cardiff that should Villa be promoted this season then out of that team I'd only be keeping Johnstone, Chester, Kodjia and Grealish. I really couldn't see any of the rest cutting it in the Premiership. That's a massive rebuild right there for the first team then you'd have to consider the bench which would also need more quality.

I would actually love to see the likes of Lyden, Hayes and O'Hare given a place on the bench with more playing time alongside Davis and Green but that should have been done this season (yes I know Lyden & Green have been injured) rather than now having to blood them in the Premiership should Villa get through the playoffs.

With that in mind I do not feel Bruce would be the ideal manager to take Villa forward even if Villa find themselves playing another season in the Championship.

In my opinion if Villa are still in the Championship next year then the club should employ a manager used to bringing through youngsters because as many have already said half the squad will be either sold or released in the summer with very little money to replace them.

That would be something I'd actually look forward to watching a Villa side full of youthful exubrance with Green, Lyden, O'Hare, Hayes, Davis, Murphy, Clark, Suliman and Bedeau formulating a new exciting Villa team.

With the right manager I feel most of those players would take Villa up next season. 

Bruce really has missed a trick by not using those players more in this campaign in particular not having O'Hare on the bench to give Grealish a rest if the games were going well or Hayes replacing Hourihane. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by striker

[TRO]

I think it depends what the starting point is....

• Some people like him and cut him some slack for being human, see his good points and accentuate them and ignore the bits of controvesy as a storm in a tea cup, or a sideshow ,see the bad bits as part of a manager for where we are.
• Some people don't really like him accentuate the bad points, hang on to bits of controvesy for credibility, ignore the good bits as an inconvenience.

I think an awful lot of whether Steve Bruce is praised or criticised does come from the original starting point.....sorry.

[A'Villan]

4 hours ago, striker said:

I was running it over in my head before the Grealish goal against Cardiff that should Villa be promoted this season then out of that team I'd only be keeping Johnstone, Chester, Kodjia and Grealish. I really couldn't see any of the rest cutting it in the Premiership. That's a massive rebuild right there for the first team then you'd have to consider the bench which would also need more quality.

I would actually love to see the likes of Lyden, Hayes and O'Hare given a place on the bench with more playing time alongside Davis and Green but that should have been done this season (yes I know Lyden & Green have been injured) rather than now having to blood them in the Premiership should Villa get through the playoffs.

With that in mind I do not feel Bruce would be the ideal manager to take Villa forward even if Villa find themselves playing another season in the Championship.

In my opinion if Villa are still in the Championship next year then the club should employ a manager used to bringing through youngsters because as many have already said half the squad will be either sold or released in the summer with very little money to replace them.

That would be something I'd actually look forward to watching a Villa side full of youthful exubrance with Green, Lyden, O'Hare, Hayes, Davis, Murphy, Clark, Suliman and Bedeau formulating a new exciting Villa team.

With the right manager I feel most of those players would take Villa up next season. 

Bruce really has missed a trick by not using those players more in this campaign in particular not having O'Hare on the bench to give Grealish a rest if the games were going well or Hayes replacing Hourihane. 

You would not include Terry or Snodgrass? 

[A'Villan]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

I think it depends what the starting point is....

• Some people like him and cut him some slack for being human, see his good points and accentuate them and ignore the bits of controvesy as a storm in a tea cup, or a sideshow ,see the bad bits as part of a manager for where we are.
• Some people don't really like him accentuate the bad points, hang on to bits of controvesy for credibility, ignore the good bits as an inconvenience.

I think an awful lot of whether Steve Bruce is praised or criticised does come from the original starting point.....sorry.

I'm not sure I agree. I have tried to hold a perspective free from bias as to how I saw him before he became our manager. Which was not someone I would be picking to lead us.

I looked in to his record with other clubs and tried to gauge a POV that was balanced, and I think many on here, some at least, have done the same in their respective ways.

My starting point was that we as a club were turning a corner through TPTB (Xia) and that would be through things beyond Bruce's influence, which left me optimistic about Bruce's ability to do his best work here. It was simply unknown what Bruce would do with a club of our size and standing. As I said in a previous debate, his next biggest club was probably Sunderland, who he led to their best ever finish, 10th in the PL.

His start, and I say that meaning from the start of this season (giving him time to settle in), was poor. He blamed everyone but himself and we were fairly average at best.

When the reality was he had a fresh start, fresh players, fresh owner, money at his disposal, a very attractive club for the leagues elite players to join.

In my mind the one job he had, was to accept those facts and move this club forward, which he has done and full credit and admiration to him for doing so. Promotion in my mind would be a by-product of that. The fact is that if Bruce, or whoever, continued to get it wrong we could have been in a similar position to Sunderland.

[TRO]

26 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

I'm not sure I agree. I have tried to hold a perspective free from bias as to how I saw him before he became our manager. Which was not someone I would be picking to lead us.

I looked in to his record with other clubs and tried to gauge a POV that was balanced, and I think many on here, some at least, have done the same in their respective ways.

My starting point was that we as a club were turning a corner through TPTB (Xia) and that would be through things beyond Bruce's influence, which left me optimistic about Bruce's ability to do his best work here. It was simply unknown what Bruce would do with a club of our size and standing. As I said in a previous debate, his next biggest club was probably Sunderland, who he led to their best ever finish, 10th in the PL.

His start, and I say that meaning from the start of this season (giving him time to settle in), was poor. He blamed everyone but himself and we were fairly average at best.

When the reality was he had a fresh start, fresh players, fresh owner, money at his disposal, a very attractive club for the leagues elite players to join.

In my mind the one job he had, was to accept those facts and move this club forward, which he has done and full credit and admiration to him for doing so. Promotion in my mind would be a by-product of that. The fact is that if Bruce, or whoever, continued to get it wrong we could have been in a similar position to Sunderland.

I don't want to revisit or regurgitate a debate that has longer legs than a giraffe, but how do you know the rectification of the squad had not yet materialised and at the first game it should have been like we are now ......why did Fulham have a slow start?

The changes had been made, but they didn't come to flourish as quick as we all hoped for....That is not always the managers fault gelling can vary in time.

He didn't blame everyone but himself.....He defended himself against accusations He felt was wide of the mark.....I think he was entitled to do that and if the roles were reversed with you and him, I'd defend you too.

I accept though that the start has hampered our objective, no doubt about that.

I've just had some new plants, new pots and new grow bags......but the flowers are not out yet......These things are not spontaneous, they take time.

seperate from our objective......look at what we CAN produce compared to October 2017......could you honestly have seen us then beating teams like Fulham, Wolves, Cardiff & Bristol City....No, neither me.

despite some recent ****shows the overall has improved, not at everything, but  many things have improved......Hope has improved for one.

We could very easily been in a position similar to Sunderland......and believe me this is not a ploy to argue for him.....but that was a very real danger.

For me, I could honestly not see the thing changing, even with Steve Bruce, I just thought it was an outside chance, such was the treacle we was treading in.

We was most definately in **** street when he took over.

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by TRO

[A'Villan]

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't want to revisit or regurgitate a debate that has longer legs than a giraffe, but how do you know the rectification of the squad had not yet materialised and at the first game it should have been like we are now ......why did Fulham have a slow start?

The changes had been made, but they didn't come to flourish as quick as we all hoped for....That is not always the managers fault gelling can vary in time.

He didn't blame everyone but himself.....He defended himself against accusations He felt was wide of the mark.....I think he was entitled to do that and if the roles were reversed with you and him, I'd defend you too.

I accept though that the start has hampered our objective, no doubt about that.

I've just had some new plants, new pots and new grow bags......but the flowers are not out yet......These things are not spontaneous, they take time.

seperate from our objective......look at what we CAN produce compared to October 2017......could you honestly have seen us then beating teams like Fulham, Wolves, Cardiff & Bristol City....No, neither me.

despite some recent ****shows the overall has improved, not at everything, but  many things have improved......Hope has improved for one.

We could very easily been in a position similar to Sunderland......and believe me this is not a ploy to argue for him.....but that was a very real danger.

For me, I could honestly not see the thing changing, even with Steve Bruce, I just thought it was an outside chance, such was the treacle we was treading in.

We was most definately in **** street when he took over.

 

I will do my bit and refrain from revisiting it as well then.

I think we are on similar pages, perhaps taking a different route to get there.

Bruce has been more of a success than failure.