Villan_of_oz Posted April 21, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Demitri_C said: No I'm not drunk. I think he was average at best and certainly not a player we should be relying on if we have aspirations for promotion next season Lol not for your view mate. Your spelling is a bit off in that post is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 1 hour ago, TRO said: Football may be a simple game......but if you are telling me a manager can influence a player from not engaging in the basics, I!m sorry I'm bailing out of the debate. If you are telling me that Steve Bruce is directly responsible for some of the things I have seen.....like letting players run past you with no physical contact....poor passing, poor first touch, poor positioning. sorry.....not having any of that. If I had said to my school master.......he went past me.....but it's your fault for not setting us up properly. He would say it's your job, not mine. What do you think Managers do? There's a reason why the better managers go to the better clubs. They get more out of their players. How hard is that to understand? Every professional footballer can control and pass a ball that's why they're professional and the rest of us aren't. Keeping the ball and developing your passing style and your positioning is all down to coaching. Have teams like Brentford got better players than us? Do they play better football? I've asked these before but you tend to ignore it. I'd say the majority would say no and yes to those questions. The reason? They're coached better. Having seen the stats of Hull when they went up I hope Bruce can replicate that with us but I've seen nothing so far to suggest he can. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, dn1982 said: What do you think Managers do? There's a reason why the better managers go to the better clubs. They get more out of their players. How hard is that to understand? Every professional footballer can control and pass a ball that's why they're professional and the rest of us aren't. Keeping the ball and developing your passing style and your positioning is all down to coaching. Have teams like Brentford got better players than us? Do they play better football? I've asked these before but you tend to ignore it. I'd say the majority would say no and yes to those questions. The reason? They're coached better. Having seen the stats of Hull when they went up I hope Bruce can replicate that with us but I've seen nothing so far to suggest he can. Well first of all, he is only in the the early stages of the job. And sorry I completely disagree with your take on what the manager does.....you insinuate a player goes from a well coached manager to a poor coached manager and not take with him his personal skill base......I think that is rubbish quite frankly. Do you think a poor coach can negate the skills of George Best, Trevor Francis , Brian Little etc... You put too much responsibility on the Manager for me.......does the manager of Real Madrid take credit for Ronaldos ability.........equally a poor player is not necessarily their responsibility either. Edited April 21, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 10 hours ago, TRO said: Well first of all, he is only in the the early stages of the job. And sorry I completely disagree with your take on what the manager does.....you insinuate a player goes from a well coached manager to a poor coached manager and not take with him his personal skill base......I think that is rubbish quite frankly. Do you think a poor coach can negate the skills of George Best, Trevor Francis , Brian Little etc... You put too much responsibility on the Manager for me.......does the manager of Real Madrid take credit for Ronaldos ability.........equally a poor player is not necessarily their responsibility either. Name these players that can't pass the ball or control it? We are in the Championship our players don't have to be the worlds best they just have to be better than those in this league. I've asked you a few times now about our team. Do teams like Brentford have better players? Do they play better football? Do you think Bruce is doing a good job? Are you happy with the football Bruce is having us play? Bruce will have been in charge for virtually a full PL campaign just short of 38 games isn't that long enough to expect to see improvement on the pitch? If not in your opinion when should we expect it? If you don't want to answer fair enough just don't reply quoting Pele compared to Alan Hutton (deliberately not said Cafu). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan_of_oz Posted April 22, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) I truly believe that a lot has been going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, in terms of trying to get good structure in place. I also believe we came down with a certain mentality, a stain on the clubs mindset etc. I don't believe buying different players just fixes it straight away. I've done a lot of coaching in my time and the worse things are the longer they take to fix. For example Bruce clearly when he came in put a lot of time into stopping us being easybeats and that took away from time that could've been spent on a attacking mentality, free flowing passing etc. Some people are asking how long we should give him. Well imo, he gets the off season and the pre season to implement nexts years expectations, squad and playing style and then I would give 5 to 8 games (at the most) to show method and his plan. Because I might rate Bruce but I'm not a mug (I think) if he doesn't hit the ground running then Ill call for his head because yes he has had long enough. Anything else his sheer madness in my view. He is our best most qualified option in charge, he deserves to start next season. Edited April 22, 2017 by Villan_of_oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 Our attacking and defensive records in the league are pretty similar under Bruce compared to as they were under Di Matteo, especially the defensive records that are almost identical. Under Bruce: 32 games with 35 (1.09 p/g) scored & 34 (1.06 p/g) conceded. Under Di Matteo: 11 games with 10 (0.91 p/g) scored & 12 (1.09 p/g) conceded. The 3 points for a win system working in our favor We've managed to turn those freakishly high number of draws into wins and losses. Largely thanks to Kodija's 8 or 9 game winning goals. And since points is what matters, especially when trying to avoid relegation the big difference is in points average. 1.5 p/g compared to a dismal 0.91 p/g. I'll say this about Bruce, the number of points acquired from having an OK defense and scoring very few goals is amazing. Honestly have no idea how we managed to pick up as many points as we have, playing the way we do. ( Disclaimer: Yes I know stats doesn't tell the whole story ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 13 hours ago, Demitri_C said: No I'm not drunk. I think he was average at best and certainly not a player we should be relying on if we have aspirations for promotion next season That's the thing for me, this season is finished, gabby isn't the future, he's been out for 3 months, straight back in just because its blues and he's been in training at half 8 all this week? Safe to say I don't agree 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 On 4/21/2017 at 01:14, Farlz said: Wanted to get a bit more of a look into how his Hull side were in 2015/16. 3rd highest in the league for possession (53%) 4th highest scorers (69) 3rd fewest goals conceded (35) 1st for pass success rate (78%) 1st for most shots per game (16) 1st for most passes per game (480) 1st for most key passes per game (12) This is all positive stuff for me, Bruce obviously can get a side to play a more possession/attacking game. Has the Championship really evolved that much in the past 12 months that Bruce can't replicate this kind of stuff with the aid of a pre season, I very much doubt it. He goes on about how we don't keep the ball well enough so it's not as if he doesn't realise the problem. Like I said previously, Bruce will certainly be here next season. No point wasting your breath wanting him sacked. A couple good signings in key areas + a pre season I'm willing to give him a chance that things will improve. Means nothing, fed up of hearing about his record, I want to see it here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 Get a good start next season and think we'll be flying for the rest of it. 10 points from our first 5 games. We won 1 game in our first 12 this season. It's very difficult to finish in the top 6 with a start like that. Derby had a near identical bad start. They had a go at reaching the play offs but like us have finished miles short. With a good pre season I'd back SB to get us off to the solid start that eluded us this season and we can build from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poitier Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 On 21/04/2017 at 01:14, Farlz said: Wanted to get a bit more of a look into how his Hull side were in 2015/16. 3rd highest in the league for possession (53%) 4th highest scorers (69) 3rd fewest goals conceded (35) 1st for pass success rate (78%) 1st for most shots per game (16) 1st for most passes per game (480) 1st for most key passes per game (12) This is all positive stuff for me, Bruce obviously can get a side to play a more possession/attacking game. Has the Championship really evolved that much in the past 12 months that Bruce can't replicate this kind of stuff with the aid of a pre season, I very much doubt it. He goes on about how we don't keep the ball well enough so it's not as if he doesn't realise the problem. Like I said previously, Bruce will certainly be here next season. No point wasting your breath wanting him sacked. A couple good signings in key areas + a pre season I'm willing to give him a chance that things will improve. With stats like that it is a bit surprising that they finished fourth, six points off automatic promotion. That was a settled side, practically the same as had been relegated from the Prem the previous season, so I think the fact that they got promoted via the play offs does mask a level of underachievement there. I worry that Bruce will never make our team as good as the sum of its parts, so I still think we need significant investment in the first team this summer so that underachievement still ends up in at least a play off place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 We have spent the season playing catchup, hopefully that's not gonna happen next year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 Does anyone know who was Bruce's assistant manager and/or 1st team coach at Hull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said: Does anyone know who was Bruce's assistant manager and/or 1st team coach at Hull? Mike Phelan according to Internet Edit: He replaced Steve Agnew Edited April 22, 2017 by sne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 Perhaps Mike Phelan wouldn't be a bad addition to the coaching squad. A good assistant often shapes the style and set up of the team. Often managers careers are depended on who is behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 We do have a strong and proud tradition of hiring managers who seem to be able to do f all without their previous assistant managers... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 25 minutes ago, sne said: Mike Phelan according to Internet Edit: He replaced Steve Agnew Yep, with Keith Bertschin as first team coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GREAT_BEARD_OF_ZEUS Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 Would be great to see Micky P come in during the summer, but after Bruce's very pro comments re Calderwood this season, I can't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 22 hours ago, TRO said: the game is about players......the system is secondary. The best system in the world, will not negate poor players. There has to be a blend between to two......but don't keep blaming systems, they are just a by product. Since you keep banging this drum I will ask again which of our players are poor? By poor I assume not good enough to play for a top 6 team And I disagree with the first point, a good system can make average players better and conversely a poor or lack of a system makes good players look worse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 10 hours ago, dn1982 said: Name these players that can't pass the ball or control it? We are in the Championship our players don't have to be the worlds best they just have to be better than those in this league. I've asked you a few times now about our team. Do teams like Brentford have better players? Do they play better football? Do you think Bruce is doing a good job? Are you happy with the football Bruce is having us play? Bruce will have been in charge for virtually a full PL campaign just short of 38 games isn't that long enough to expect to see improvement on the pitch? If not in your opinion when should we expect it? If you don't want to answer fair enough just don't reply quoting Pele compared to Alan Hutton (deliberately not said Cafu). Your wasting your time asking who are these players not up to top 6 level, same as asking what they see on the pitch on match day that gives any indication that he is up to the job....... Name me any manager who won't get better results with better players, you have to ask with the money we have spent how can we not put out 11 players who can do the basics correctly on match day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villarocker Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 Steve, if you only win one more game this season, make it tomorrow's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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