TRO Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, terrytini said: There aren't millions of problems just the same ones that every team has and good managers fix them and failing ones don't. too simplistic a statement IMV Terry was Ranieri a bad manager, then? Edited February 25, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, TRO said: So, why did arguably the best manager in the world a few years ago.....take so long to get his " Bed" straight.....He was nearly sacked., and the rest is history. I've no idea what you mean. Your view appears to be we have an almost mythical, unprecedented, set of unique problems, and that because of the extraordinary nature of them, players overwhelmed by the badge, lazy because of the wages, clueless technically, and lacking in character, we need to take the almost unprecedented step of keeping a Manager even if he gets us relegated. I have the view we have some good players, some average ones, a couple of poor ones, and that with good management we would be pushing for play off places not fighting relegation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, terrytini said: But I think your logic is massively flawed. You keep referring to how many Managers we've had. But if you take it rationally we had Lambert who worked under strangled investment and a disinterested owner until he was burnt out. We then made two daft appointments in Sherwood and Garde. Appointments made on the cheap by a disinterested owner. And we got what we deserved. Are you really saying that IN ANY WAY getting rid of those two had cost us ANYTHING ? Because I don't know anyone who thinks so. So none of those three guys getting sacked CONTRIBUTED to our demise, they were part of the cause. Which leaves RDM and Bruce. Neither of whom have produced an even tolerable level of results or signs of progress. So effectively we are no different than any side. We've a failing Manager and he isn't a special case so we do what every club does. It doesn't guarantee the next guy will succeed? No club can guarantee that when they sack a failing Manager, but all clubs do it because they know their only chance of getting a successful guy is to get rid of an unsuccessful guy . Its simple really, and has been the way of the football world since forever. how can we be so sure the next 2 are not equally as daft ?....as you put it. I don't remember anyone on here saying Garde was daft ,on the contrary, I think he was well received. I don't subscribe to your analysis.....I think all the managers contributed to the overall disruption. Edited February 25, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, TRO said: too simplistic a statement IMV Terry was Ranieri a bad manager, then? See above. Its not about good Managers and bad ones , THAT is too simplistic. Its that ALL managers are both good AND bad depending upon the time, the fit, the budget, the alchemy, the luck, whatever. So you try and try until you get lucky with one. Ron Saunders was right for us, but fans of other clubs would say he was awful. Its simply what works and when, and this doesn't work now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo_b Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I don't know if Bruce is the answer, but I know that to only know the answer is to let everyone bed in, that includes the top level management, the coaching staff, the players, the physio's, the sports psychologists which we appear to have hired, hell probably the bar staff and stewards too, top to bottom there has been an unprecedented turn over of staff, they all need time to settle and I think come next season we will see a team that has the start of an identity. Sadly none of us know what's the right thing to do, and seeing our club seemingly decaying year after year no matter what we do is soul destroying, I once thought Lerner was an incredible owner, but then he just stopped caring, literally just stopped, no interest what so ever, this will forever put him down as one of the worst chairmen in football history. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Just now, TRO said: how can we be so sure the next 2 are not equally as daft ?....as you put it. I don't remember anyone on here saying Garde was daft ,on the contrary, I think he was well received. I don't subscribe to your analysis.....I think all the managers contributed to the overall disruption. Yes the managers contributed to the problems. Sacking them didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 15 hours ago, DCJonah said: But again, should time not be given based on what he's doing here? In all fairness what he did in the past is not that relevant. If he was clearly implementing a plan, or players were improving under his coaching, I could understand the call for time. But to just see what happens is just daft. Hopefully a good pre season will do wonders and we can get next season off to a flyer. Good start which we didn't have this season and we can build from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, terrytini said: I've no idea what you mean. Your view appears to be we have an almost mythical, unprecedented, set of unique problems, and that because of the extraordinary nature of them, players overwhelmed by the badge, lazy because of the wages, clueless technically, and lacking in character, we need to take the almost unprecedented step of keeping a Manager even if he gets us relegated. I have the view we have some good players, some average ones, a couple of poor ones, and that with good management we would be pushing for play off places not fighting relegation. I meant Alex Ferguson took some time to get things right, quite a long time actually. No I'm saying we have a lot of problems and some folk are assuming SB is either unaware of them or is clueless as to how to fix them. I think its perfectly reasonable for a manager who knows what the problem is, is trying to find a solution and in doing so tries a variety of actions in order to try and get a positive result. Unfortunately, in life not all of our actions bear fruit, so we have to try again. I was a manager, when I was working and not all of my theories worked, but I tried other things and eventually success is achieved......my bosses could see day to day what I was doing and supported me ( in adverse times)because they could see what Actions I was taking, was feasible.....I had salesmen, (just like Bruce has players that he relies on) some needed no help from me, some did......but I could not do the job for them.....They had to stand on their own two feet. In a sales team, just like a football team, you can't carry folk, targets are such, all of them need to be pulling their weight. You can have all the theories, tried and tested processes and procedures, all the plans and blue prints,but sometimes it still fails.....You then need experience, composure and above all else perseverence to stick with the task , weather the storm and BELIEVE in what you are doing......In times when you don't know the answer to the next question of why is it failing ( and I have been there Terry , believe me it ain't nice) when the world all seems against you, you dig deep and remind yourself of the work you have been praised for, the accolades ( I've had all them) I have had the times when I could do no wrong and when times got rocky, the doubters come out to play.....personally been through all of that and it wasn't a tin pot company I worked for it was a International company of high renown. I know he will fix this.....but not maybe, just when we want it......finger clicking is not on the agenda I believe we have to rough it out.......and let HIM work his way through it. Edited February 25, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 20 minutes ago, terrytini said: Yes the managers contributed to the problems. Sacking them didn't. you don't know how that affected the players.....I guess neither do I .....but It can't have helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 The logical extension of your argument is that we apppint him in perpetuity. Presumably then you feel that even if we lose the next twenty games we stick with him ? If not then really everything you are saying just boils down to saying I would sack him too but not quite yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 1 minute ago, TRO said: you don't know how that affected the players.....I guess neither do I .....but It can't have helped. But if the managers were making things worse why would sacking them make things worse ! Sorry TRO I just can't fathom where your unswerving belief in Bruce being the guy to stick with comes from. Believe me I'm a stability kind of guy - I thought we were mad to sack RDM 11 games into the season, but had RDM gone another six games and got no better I'd have wanted him out, Like many I would love to have a tangible, visible, reason to keep Bruce, but there are none. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 10 minutes ago, VillaChris said: Hopefully a good pre season will do wonders and we can get next season off to a flyer. Good start which we didn't have this season and we can build from there. By the end of the season you might view the point a game start under RDM was indeed 'good'. We certainly 'started' this season ok if you include up until around December. Just shows a good start without a good plan acheived nothing. Im afraid whatever start we get under Bruce won't give me confidence it will be maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 15 minutes ago, TRO said: I meant Alex Ferguson took some time to get things right, quite a long time actually. No I'm saying we have a lot of problems and some folk are assuming SB is either unaware of them or is clueless as to how to fix them. I think its perfectly reasonable for a manager who knows what the problem is, is trying to find a solution and in doing so tries a variety of actions in order to try and get a positive result. Unfortunately, in life not all of our actions bear fruit, so we have to try again. I was a manager, when I was working and not all of my theories worked, but I tried other things and eventually success is achieved......my bosses could see day to day what I was doing and supported me ( in adverse times)because they could see what Actions I was taking, was feasible.....I had salesmen, (just like Bruce has players that he relies on) some needed no help from me, some did......but I could not do the job for them.....They had to stand on their own two feet. In a sales team, just like a football team, you can't carry folk, targets are such, all of them need to be pulling their weight. You can have all the theories, tried and tested processes and procedures, all the plans and blue prints,but sometimes it still fails.....You then need experience, composure and above all else perseverence to stick with the task , weather the storm and BELIEVE in what you are doing......In times when you don't know the answer to the next question of why is it failing ( and I have been there Terry , believe me it ain't nice) when the world all seems against you, you dig deep and remind yourself of the work you have been praised for, the accolades ( I've had all them) I have the the times when I could do no wrong and when times got rocky, the doubters are in evidence.....personally been through all of that and it wasn't a tin pot company I worked for it was a International company of high renown. I know he will fix this.....but not maybe, just when we want it......finger clicking is not on the agenda I believe we have to rough it out.......and let HIM work his way through it. I can't do much more of this lol ! You say "perseverance and believe in what you are doing" but that's the whole point ...it's NOT just the dreadful results and shocking performances, or even the negative mindset, it's that he gives plenty of signs he has no clear plan. It wasn't ME that changed from 442 to 4231 to 532 to 640 and all the rest. It wasn't ME that dropped Adomah for the home game after he'd scored two, it wasn't me that thought Elphick, no, Baker, er no, Samba , er how about myself in there ? I didn't change around the fifth best defence in the League to reduce it to a laughing stock. Since HE shows no sign of having a plan, or belief in what he's doing, how do you have belief in him ? Im sure we will speak again after today's defeat ! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) 31 minutes ago, terrytini said: But if the managers were making things worse why would sacking them make things worse ! Sorry TRO I just can't fathom where your unswerving belief in Bruce being the guy to stick with comes from. Believe me I'm a stability kind of guy - I thought we were mad to sack RDM 11 games into the season, but had RDM gone another six games and got no better I'd have wanted him out, Like many I would love to have a tangible, visible, reason to keep Bruce, but there are none. First of all Terry.....Lets get one thing straight.....I am with 110% with you on the shocking turgid offerings we see on match day....I'm up there with the most vociferous Bruce out campaigners on that.....I can't emphasise that enough Where we are at odds is......your think he should/could be fixing it " Here and Now"......I am saying despite he sees what we see, he is failing to do so....BUT WORKING ON IT. If everything in life was in theory......you wouldn't need managers. My page is he is working towards trying to find a solution, a win.......You ( I think) are saying No, He should have the answers now. I have illustrated my thoughts in an earlier thread, where not everything has a ready made answer......Every manager has to work his way through adversity, it what builds character.....On the back of 7 years, I think he needs more than 4-5 months. Edited February 25, 2017 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 So, finally, how much more ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 1 minute ago, terrytini said: I can't do much more of this lol ! You say "perseverance and believe in what you are doing" but that's the whole point ...it's NOT just the dreadful results and shocking performances, or even the negative mindset, it's that he gives plenty of signs he has no clear plan. It wasn't ME that changed from 442 to 4231 to 532 to 640 and all the rest. It wasn't ME that dropped Adomah for the home game after he'd scored two, it wasn't me that thought Elphick, no, Baker, er no, Samba , er how about myself in there ? I didn't change around the fifth best defence in the League to reduce it to a laughing stock. Since HE shows no sign of having a plan, or belief in what he's doing, how do you have belief in him ? Im sure we will speak again after today's defeat ! To turn it around. How do you know, what he is telling them and what they are doing is the same thing......Not saying that is not his responsibility, but nevertheless a problem that needs work on( time) They could well be central to HIS problem. you seem to be just assuming, that everything they are doing,( referring to their inadequate individual incompetency) he has told them to do it.....that to me sorry, is Absurd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, terrytini said: I can't do much more of this lol ! You say "perseverance and believe in what you are doing" but that's the whole point ...it's NOT just the dreadful results and shocking performances, or even the negative mindset, it's that he gives plenty of signs he has no clear plan. It wasn't ME that changed from 442 to 4231 to 532 to 640 and all the rest. It wasn't ME that dropped Adomah for the home game after he'd scored two, it wasn't me that thought Elphick, no, Baker, er no, Samba , er how about myself in there ? I didn't change around the fifth best defence in the League to reduce it to a laughing stock. Since HE shows no sign of having a plan, or belief in what he's doing, how do you have belief in him ? Im sure we will speak again after today's defeat ! Have you seen some of the stills "view to T2" put on this site.......one where we are defending a ball in from the wing.....and no one is picking up their man. Baker has left a player behind him at the far post totally unmarked. I am not exonerating Bruce for team performance.....but you have to look at the players themselves in some of these incidents and He is trying to get them right. ......Got to go now Terry. Off the watch a fun packed extravaganza in little downtown Aston. UTV Edited February 25, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 5 hours ago, dukes said: Deserved hatred ? Oh yes, Bruce is right up there with Hitler...I think we need a little perspective. You know perfectly well what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dukes Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 3 hours ago, sne said: You know perfectly well what I mean. Yeah sorry, was being a grouch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Just now, dukes said: Yeah sorry, was being a grouch. Tbf hate is probably too strong a word to use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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