Rob182 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 The MON Area? Oh shit, we didn't create an area for that gobshite did we? Where is it? I bet it has a bloody glass ceiling doesn't it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dukes Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 9 hours ago, limpid said: You've created a straw man there. No-one has suggested there is a "Master Plan". I suspect there are a broad range of plans/agendas with different priorities depending on other factors, some inside the club's control and some outside of it. To operate a business any other way would be negligent. Stadium and facilities plans need to be worked on so that they are ready when needed. This is high on the agenda for the groups who are working on it. The club will be working with the council on short, medium and long term plans about transport and about planning consent. They won't be waiting until we're promoted to have those conversations - it would be negligent of both the club and the council to do otherwise. Interesting you quoted only half of my post and not the half that expained why I didn't think NOW was the right time to invest in the ground. the master plan I referred to was Dr Tony's plan to turn Villa into a huge force again. I understand that we need to have PLANS, and I said that in my post, but to action them now would be dangerous and have the potential to become a huge white elephant should we not get back into the premier league. I would suggest that for any club that has such a huge influence over the local community planning for change should be a constant thing....this probably got neglected in the recent past, but that doesn't mean that right now in our current state there is any reason to push the button on work that may or may not turn out to be necessary. i understand about running a successful business, I have been doing so for over 10 years and over stretching yourself while banking on success that hasn't yet come to fruition is just as dangerous as not having a plan in place should success be achieved, timing is crucial in everything. Anybody advocating a business in our current position should extend capacity and build new stands (and I am not saying you directly did this) is seriously barking up the wrong tree. We were not selling out the ground in the premier league for the previous seasons, so I don't really see the problem with reducing capacity for what would be one season while work is completed, this would be the safe way to progress, have plans in place now, action them when we know where we will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dukes Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 10 hours ago, Stratvillan said: I agree, attendances will dip next year one way or another. It's the perfect time to rebuild the North Stand (where I sit), and squeeze(lol) the fans in the other 3 stands. We've proven that spending money won't get us up, we might as well redevelop the ground with the money, and create a climate of a club on the up. Develop the ground with what money ? As I understand it if we don't get promoted next season we are totally messed up. Does fair play allow us to spend money on the ground without it affecting the ratio of income to expenditure ? I doubt it. Last summer would have been a good time to have done this work, but for obvious reasons it was all too soon. Knowing what we know now about this division and how hard it's been for us, should we really invest in something that's already head and shoulders above most grounds in the league ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 21 minutes ago, dukes said: Knowing what we know now about this division and how hard it's been for us, should we really invest in something that's already head and shoulders above most grounds in the league ? Almost certainly not- though in hindsight it would have been money better spent than our transfer policy so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OutByEaster? Posted February 25, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2017 I'm not sure that the whole "Sports Quarter" development and plan at this point includes the stadium itself - it possibly includes the surrounds of Villa Park, but I almost get the feeling we're talking about the corridor of land between Villa Park and the Alexander Stadium. Dr Xia is more used to developing areas than individual sites. The land that stretches from the soon to be demolished university to opposite Witton station; filled with housing, sport themed commercial units and offices for sporting bodies, along with some actual sporting facilities, would enable Birmingham's commonwealth games bid to be focused on a sporting corridor between the two stadia, with space for the athletes and with a legacy of sports business's and housing left behind. It's less than two miles between the two and most of the land is empty - that would be an interesting proposition, and one that would suit Dr Xia down to the ground. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dukes Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 6 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: I'm not sure that the whole "Sports Quarter" development and plan at this point includes the stadium itself - it possibly includes the surrounds of Villa Park, but I almost get the feeling we're talking about the corridor of land between Villa Park and the Alexander Stadium. Dr Xia is more used to developing areas than individual sites. The land that stretches from the soon to be demolished university to opposite Witton station; filled with housing, sport themed commercial units and offices for sporting bodies, along with some actual sporting facilities, would enable Birmingham's commonwealth games bid to be focused on a sporting corridor between the two stadia, with space for the athletes and with a legacy of sports business's and housing left behind. It's less than two miles between the two and most of the land is empty - that would be an interesting proposition, and one that would suit Dr Xia down to the ground. That's very different, the title of the thread is referring to the redevelopment of Villa Park, which I assume would be at the cost of Villa/Recon. What you are talking about is Villa Park being the centre piece of a grander plan (hand in hand with the city) with the entire aim of regenerating the local area.....since that would most likely involve investment from outside I can see the logic in that. Although the key for me is what happpens afterwards. if for example Witton were to get a new station, and areas were to be set aside (perhaps in conjunction with Aston University) for science and tech as well as sport, then that would have the potential to bring more investment in the area and be of great benefit. i am not against any development, I am against Villa having to fund such development with little gain, and considerable financial burden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratvillan Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 9 hours ago, dukes said: Develop the ground with what money ? As I understand it if we don't get promoted next season we are totally messed up. Does fair play allow us to spend money on the ground without it affecting the ratio of income to expenditure ? I doubt it. Last summer would have been a good time to have done this work, but for obvious reasons it was all too soon. Knowing what we know now about this division and how hard it's been for us, should we really invest in something that's already head and shoulders above most grounds in the league ? When we get promoted, and we will, it may be next year or a couple of years after, the ground is increasingly becoming dated. The perfect time to update it is when we are not going to use all of it. In terms of money it'll cost less now than in 3 years time. When we go up we will need to spend the money on the team. If we are not going to develop the ground because we are currently down and out, it sends out the type of short term ism which has been evident on the pitch over the last 5 years. The prospect of playing in the prem. with 3 stands, a new team (stage 2), and a reduced capacity and reduced atmosphere doesn't bode well. I don't know about the financial situation, none of us do, so wether we are totally messed up is conjecture -spending 20m (?) on a new North stand is only selling RmC, and our loan players. ( Vertout, Sanchez, Gil -judging by the reviews of all 3 on VT since they've left they are well worth it)! Form is temporary -class is permanent, off the pitch we have to think like a big team, not an average championship team, otherwise we will be down in the championship for ever. On the pitch we need quality players with a championship work ethic. We have to realistic, but still ambitious -easier said than done! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 24 minutes ago, Stratvillan said: When we get promoted, and we will, it may be next year or a couple of years after, the ground is increasingly becoming dated. The perfect time to update it is when we are not going to use all of it. In terms of money it'll cost less now than in 3 years time. When we go up we will need to spend the money on the team. If we are not going to develop the ground because we are currently down and out, it sends out the type of short term ism which has been evident on the pitch over the last 5 years. The prospect of playing in the prem. with 3 stands, a new team (stage 2), and a reduced capacity and reduced atmosphere doesn't bode well. I don't know about the financial situation, none of us do, so wether we are totally messed up is conjecture -spending 20m (?) on a new North stand is only selling RmC, and our loan players. ( Vertout, Sanchez, Gil -judging by the reviews of all 3 on VT since they've left they are well worth it)! Form is temporary -class is permanent, off the pitch we have to think like a big team, not an average championship team, otherwise we will be down in the championship for ever. On the pitch we need quality players with a championship work ethic. We have to realistic, but still ambitious -easier said than done! In 3 years time the club will be in serious financial trouble if we are still in the championship, if we dont go up next season we will be in serious finacial trouble. The parachute payments drop off massivley in the 18/19 season and we get nothing in the 19/20 season. Given our wreckless spending in the last two transfer windows on players that are not even that great we will be in a huge mess very shortly unless we go up next year. I don't think now is the time to be spending money on stadium development when we cant even cover the wage bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted February 25, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 25, 2017 I like this thread. It has no threat of poor football coming in and ruining the joy. We can just dream away... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted February 25, 2017 Administrator Share Posted February 25, 2017 11 hours ago, dukes said: Anybody advocating a business in our current position should extend capacity and build new stands (and I am not saying you directly did this) is seriously barking up the wrong tree. We were not selling out the ground in the premier league for the previous seasons, so I don't really see the problem with reducing capacity for what would be one season while work is completed, this would be the safe way to progress, have plans in place now, action them when we know where we will be. Perhaps you should have used more words in your original message When did "redevelopment of Villa Park" become equivalent with "selling out the ground"? There are many things which can and should be done at Villa Park that have nothing to do with the number of seats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) Spending on infrastructure, stadium enhancements etc are exempt from FFP and as I understand can actually be used against losses on players/wages etc to help offset them. This may not be 100% accurate but I was told that one of the reasons Citeh spunked £200million on their training complex was to use that against FFP losses on player expenditure. Edited February 25, 2017 by thabucks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Are we all forgetting the grand announcements from Dr Tony when he first came in about theme parks and such like for the regeneration around VP. I'm not sure he was aware when he took over Brum wanted to bid for the Commonwealth games but something will certainly happen in that area as there's a huge amount of land now. Eventually the North Stand will get redeveloped...great view but it's been showing its age for a while now and the concourses are very difficult to navigate when it's packed out at half time. I'd like to see a proper Museum incorporated into a new design...it's one thing we've always lacked. I think Wolves put one into their new stand a few years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OutByEaster? Posted February 25, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2017 2 hours ago, dukes said: That's very different, the title of the thread is referring to the redevelopment of Villa Park, which I assume would be at the cost of Villa/Recon. What you are talking about is Villa Park being the centre piece of a grander plan (hand in hand with the city) with the entire aim of regenerating the local area.....since that would most likely involve investment from outside I can see the logic in that. Although the key for me is what happpens afterwards. if for example Witton were to get a new station, and areas were to be set aside (perhaps in conjunction with Aston University) for science and tech as well as sport, then that would have the potential to bring more investment in the area and be of great benefit. i am not against any development, I am against Villa having to fund such development with little gain, and considerable financial burden. It's not simply my pipe dream, it's an interpretation (a guess) at what the CEO has told us both in the fans meeting and on the radio, and on what Dr Xia has said a couple of times since he bought the club - he's very interested in the area, he's very interested in making Villa part of something larger. If you look at what Man City have done with a great big chunk of the edge of central manchester, I think that might be the sort of development Dr Xia is considering - albeit with more a mixed use focus. In terms of Villa funding a development and the financial burden, this is what Dr Xia does for a living, and at this point it looks like he's able to turn a profit from it. There are tangible benefits to the club too - If you get to a point where UK athletics for example has its offices on your property, then FFP doesn't affect your ability to build those offices, but the rent can go straight into the club coffers and be spent on player wages. RECON can build apartments; Villa can collect rents. I'm a hundred miles ahead of myself and I'm guessing based on what land I think the club might own, a few sentences I'm drawing conclusions from and a fair bit of wishful thinking, but I think that corridor is absolutely ripe for development - you've got an athletics stadium, the dog track, the BMX facility, the gymnastics and martial arts centre and the (ahem) Doug Ellis sports centre already in place in that strip - with an iconic football stadium at the other end. A bloke who's made a fortune redeveloping cities and owns a sporting institution that he has ambitions for in a city that's chasing a sporting event and doesn't want to pay for everything themselves might well be thinking along those lines. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dukes Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: It's not simply my pipe dream, it's an interpretation (a guess) at what the CEO has told us both in the fans meeting and on the radio, and on what Dr Xia has said a couple of times since he bought the club - he's very interested in the area, he's very interested in making Villa part of something larger. If you look at what Man City have done with a great big chunk of the edge of central manchester, I think that might be the sort of development Dr Xia is considering - albeit with more a mixed use focus. In terms of Villa funding a development and the financial burden, this is what Dr Xia does for a living, and at this point it looks like he's able to turn a profit from it. There are tangible benefits to the club too - If you get to a point where UK athletics for example has its offices on your property, then FFP doesn't affect your ability to build those offices, but the rent can go straight into the club coffers and be spent on player wages. RECON can build apartments; Villa can collect rents. I'm a hundred miles ahead of myself and I'm guessing based on what land I think the club might own, a few sentences I'm drawing conclusions from and a fair bit of wishful thinking, but I think that corridor is absolutely ripe for development - you've got an athletics stadium, the dog track, the BMX facility, the gymnastics and martial arts centre and the (ahem) Doug Ellis sports centre already in place in that strip - with an iconic football stadium at the other end. A bloke who's made a fortune redeveloping cities and owns a sporting institution that he has ambitions for in a city that's chasing a sporting event and doesn't want to pay for everything themselves might well be thinking along those lines. I absolutely get this, I understand how it could be of benefit to the city, community and to the club, and I see how it fits with Dr Tony's specific area of expertise. If also it provides a route for works at Villa Park without causing a Fair Play problem then again inset the benefit of that. What I don't get is people thinking we should expand the ground when we aren't filling it, and don't have a recent history of filling it. Particular at a time when frankly nobody knows that we are going to be promoted in the next two seasons, and we all know failure to do so will likely have a very detrimental effect on the club. Anyway it seems (from a post elsewhere on the forum... that I can't find) that Keith Wyness has ruled out stadium expansion until we are promoted, which makes a lot of sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dukes Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 4 hours ago, Stratvillan said: I don't know about the financial situation, none of us do, so wether we are totally messed up is conjecture -spending 20m (?) on a new North stand is only selling RmC, and our loan players. ( Vertout, Sanchez, Gil -judging by the reviews of all 3 on VT since they've left they are well worth it. Of course the north stand is dated, of course parts of the stadium need bringing up to date. There is probably her a perfect time to do so, but at a time when we are on current form the worst team in the division and sitting just 6 points above the relegation zone, this is for sure not the right time. Anyway it would be nice to think we could replace the ancient North Stand with the Button, two pieces of string and a carrot we'd get for the players you mention :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratvillan Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 5 hours ago, dukes said: Of course the north stand is dated, of course parts of the stadium need bringing up to date. There is probably her a perfect time to do so, but at a time when we are on current form the worst team in the division and sitting just 6 points above the relegation zone, this is for sure not the right time. Anyway it would be nice to think we could replace the ancient North Stand with the Button, two pieces of string and a carrot we'd get for the players you mention :-) Think string and a carrot might be pushing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Maybe if we build it they will come (results that is) as spunking money on players hasn't exactly worked well has it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Having nearly 12,000 unsold seats for a 3pm non televised match suggests that this will be on the back burner for a while.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 45 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said: Having nearly 12,000 unsold seats for a 3pm non televised match suggests that this will be on the back burner for a while.... Of course it's on the back burner, we're in the Championship! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted February 26, 2017 Administrator Share Posted February 26, 2017 12 hours ago, The Fun Factory said: Having nearly 12,000 unsold seats for a 3pm non televised match suggests that this will be on the back burner for a while.... Again. Villa Park redevelopment isn't about seats (have you read the thread?). When do you think the club should make the plans? Considering how slow the planning process is and how many parties need to be involved in transport plans, this needs to be happening continuously. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts