useless Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 He's an excellent footballer, has a great all round game, so can't really dismiss him just because he hasn't scored many goals to date, pretty sure his goal record in the academy sides wasn't that bad, so no reason why that side of his game can't develop with a run of games with him being involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 22 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said: Give him a chance then? He's had one proper run of games in his entire spell here. He's a good player. I think he will do well with better service. I dont, he couldnt do it in the championship so why can he at premiership level...no reason to. I believe you have been critical of Wes (apologies if I am wrong) who are roughly the same age (Wes 14 months older) and Wes came from a foreign league, new language etc etc etc. So if you are being critical of Wes who with all that has scored in the PL 5 goals in 1790 minutes i.e. a goal every 358 minutes in the Premiership but Davis in the championship in 17/18 season when he had a run before injury and Tammy came in the following season had 2 goals in 1499 minutes, that's a goal in every 750 minutes in the Championship. That's double the time in a lower league which quality is a lot lower than the premiership and he was more settled at the club. So lets look prior to that. In the prior season Wes scored 13 in 38 games...1 in 3 or a goal every 238 minutes, Davis was in Premiership 2 Division 2, had 4 goals in 18 games or one goal every 358 minutes. So Davis' goal record was only as good as Wes' PL goal record when Davis was in the Premiership 2 Division 2 level.................says it all really. Davis doesnt have a goal scoring record of any substance. Ahhh you say that Davis brings other players into the game.........Wes had 6 assists last season in 3101 minutes i.e. an assist in every 516 minutes whereas Davis in the Championship was 1 assist in 1499 minutes....so 3 times worse. So in impactful contribution he wasnt as good in comparison yet was in a lower league. I just dont get how Davis gets a pass whereas Wes gets slaughtered on here. I'm not saying Wes is the right player but the hypocrisy here between Wes and Davis I just dont get. Wes' price tag wasnt his fault, and yet his stats through his career is so much better than Davis' and there is only 14 months age difference and Wes has done it in different leagues, languages but yet we should give Davis a chance. I hear the allegation that Wes doesnt add anything to the team but I see that and I can easily argue he provides more impact to the team than Davis. Davis holds the ball up well and links sometimes well with individuals but not enough, provides no goal threat and looks to have no potential to get better as a finisher. Like most on here I have watched every minute of Davis' pitch time and I've watched Wes' preseason and all his PL games and some people have wildly different perception on both of them, which seems very skewed. For me, I just dont see anything to justify Davis getting a run in the team, he hasnt earned it with his prior contribution unless people are just happy with an average striker who holds the ball up well but doesnt score. If that is sufficient then fine. If Samatta doesnt work out, we dont get another striker or Samatta gets injured then we have no choice but use Davis. Happy to use him in the final ten minutes of games to close out wins but as for a run in the first team I hope we get another striker in before the close of the window and Davis is third choice because I dont think he adds anything of note and service wont be better than when we were in the championship. I'll be gutted if he does get significant minutes for the closing games of the season because it does make it harder in our battle to stay up. Hopefully with Samatta and another, that wont be the case!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elton Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 16 minutes ago, nick76 said: I dont, he couldnt do it in the championship so why can he at premiership level... Why doesn’t anyone realise he was only 19 when he had a run of games in a Bruce team that was fairly defensively minded. He also played very well and we scored more goals as a team. You can’t judge someone on their goalscoring record based solely on their first run in the team as a teenager! And yes, he could definitely score in Scotland. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 31 minutes ago, nick76 said: I dont, he couldnt do it in the championship so why can he at premiership level...no reason to. He "did" it against Leicester. The 3rd best team in England. He was a proper handful for them yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Elton said: Why doesn’t anyone realise he was only 19 when he had a run of games in a Bruce team that was fairly defensively minded. He also played very well and we scored more goals as a team. You can’t judge someone on their goalscoring record based solely on their first run in the team as a teenager! And yes, he could definitely score in Scotland. See this is the problem, Davis gets a pass and favourable remarks defensively minded? But we were in the championship, more of an opportunity to score than the PL when we are fighting relegation. ’Played very well’......nope....he played ok, like you I saw it...he was bang average! I agree around scoring record...so I talked about assists as well which is impactful contribution but he doesn’t look like scoring either. As we’ve heard by this site, a strikers job is goals which Wes gets hit by regularly in the first half of the season i highlighted his goal scoring record before championship as well which was awful. haha I give you Scotland Just seems people are being over favourable to somebody that hasn’t shown enough. Edited January 29, 2020 by nick76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, villalad21 said: He "did" it against Leicester. The 3rd best team in England. He was a proper handful for them yesterday. woohoo! A few hold ups, a few turns but never looked like scoring or a threat to their goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 1 minute ago, nick76 said: See this is the problem, Davis gets a pass and favourable remarks defensively minded? But we were in the championship, more of an opportunity to score the PL when we are fighting relegation. ’Played very well’......nope....he played ok, like you I saw it...he was bang average! I agree around scoring record...so I talked about assists as well which is impactful contribution but he doesn’t look like scoring either. As we’ve heard by this site, a strikers job is goals which Wes gets hit by regularly in the first half of the season i highlighted his goal scoring record more than first team which was awful. haha I give you Scotland Just seems people are being over favourable to somebody that hasn’t shown enough. Has he ever started a game under Smith's reign? If you judge his goal scoring record based on getting some minutes off the bench it's very harsh. Davis deserves a proper chance and a run of games. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 1 minute ago, villalad21 said: Has he ever started a game under Smith's reign? If you judge his goal scoring record based on getting some minutes off the bench it's very harsh. Davis deserves a proper chance and a run of games. You judged him....proper handful you said. Hes had the same amount of time almost in the championship as Wes did the PL as my analysis shown. 1499 minutes is material basis to work from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elton Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, nick76 said: See this is the problem, Davis gets a pass and favourable remarks defensively minded? But we were in the championship, more of an opportunity to score the PL when we are fighting relegation. ’Played very well’......nope....he played ok, like you I saw it...he was bang average! I agree around scoring record...so I talked about assists as well which is impactful contribution but he doesn’t look like scoring either. As we’ve heard by this site, a strikers job is goals which Wes gets hit by regularly in the first half of the season i highlighted his goal scoring record more than first team which was awful. haha I give you Scotland Just seems people are being over favourable to somebody that hasn’t shown enough. Not really, he’s shown plenty. You’re just ignoring what is clear with the eyes to focus on pure stats. Again, he has only had one run in the team to date and that was as a 19 year old.. I really don’t understand why you are judging him on his record as a teenager as he’s hardly featured since. If you like stats he had 4 successful dribbles last night in his 20 minutes, which was twice as many as any other player on the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 6 minutes ago, nick76 said: You judged him....proper handful you said. Hes had the same amount of time almost in the championship as Wes did the PL as my analysis shown. 1499 minutes is material basis to work from. Any striker would stuggle in Bruce rigid system. Just look at Newcastle this season. Their front three barely scores goals. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 17 minutes ago, Elton said: Not really, he’s shown plenty. You’re just ignoring what is clear with the eyes to focus on pure stats. Again, he has only had one run in the team to date and that was as a 19 year old.. I really don’t understand why you are judging him on his record as a teenager as he’s hardly featured since. If you like stats he had 4 successful dribbles last night in his 20 minutes, which was twice as many as any other player on the pitch. I watched him with my eyes, I don’t think he’s good enough. Happy to have him for last 10 minutes to close out games but other than that, no thanks. Reason I have put stats and looked at stats is to back up my argument. My eyes tell me he’s not good enough and the stats say he’s not good enough, so two for two for me. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 19 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Any striker would stuggle in Bruce rigid system. Just look at Newcastle this season. Their front three barely scores goals. Ok so I can’t judge any players, I can only judge managers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, nick76 said: Ok so I can’t judge any players, I can only judge managers. Of course you can judge players but context is everything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 8 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Of course you can judge players but context is everything. Ok, in championship he wasn’t good enough....in premier league 2 division 2 he wasn’t good enough therefore reasonable to suggest he’s not good enough for PL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Ken McNaughts Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 21 years old with a great attitude and work ethic. Cost us nothing. Low wages. Looked highly effective against a top team last night. That's enough for me. Keep it up, Keinan! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elton Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 18 minutes ago, nick76 said: I watched him with my eyes, I don’t think he’s good enough. Happy to have him for last 10 minutes to close out games but other than that, no thanks. Reason I have put stats and looked at stats is to back up my argument. My eyes tell me he’s not good enough and the stats say he’s not good enough, so two for two for me. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree I wonder what your eyes and stats thought of Grealish as a 19 year old because 19 year olds rarely improve.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 (edited) This thread is like opposite land with Villalad being reasonable while someone else seems to have a lot of unreasonable hate. I like Davis. He last played properly for us a couple of years ago when he was only 19, and he made a huge difference to us back then. I don't think it's unreasonable to consider he might improve as he gets older (and he's decent anyway—he always impresses me). Edited January 29, 2020 by Rolta 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 1 hour ago, nick76 said: I dont, he couldnt do it in the championship so why can he at premiership level...no reason to. I believe you have been critical of Wes (apologies if I am wrong) who are roughly the same age (Wes 14 months older) and Wes came from a foreign league, new language etc etc etc. So if you are being critical of Wes who with all that has scored in the PL 5 goals in 1790 minutes i.e. a goal every 358 minutes in the Premiership but Davis in the championship in 17/18 season when he had a run before injury and Tammy came in the following season had 2 goals in 1499 minutes, that's a goal in every 750 minutes in the Championship. That's double the time in a lower league which quality is a lot lower than the premiership and he was more settled at the club. So lets look prior to that. In the prior season Wes scored 13 in 38 games...1 in 3 or a goal every 238 minutes, Davis was in Premiership 2 Division 2, had 4 goals in 18 games or one goal every 358 minutes. So Davis' goal record was only as good as Wes' PL goal record when Davis was in the Premiership 2 Division 2 level.................says it all really. Davis doesnt have a goal scoring record of any substance. Ahhh you say that Davis brings other players into the game.........Wes had 6 assists last season in 3101 minutes i.e. an assist in every 516 minutes whereas Davis in the Championship was 1 assist in 1499 minutes....so 3 times worse. So in impactful contribution he wasnt as good in comparison yet was in a lower league. I just dont get how Davis gets a pass whereas Wes gets slaughtered on here. I'm not saying Wes is the right player but the hypocrisy here between Wes and Davis I just dont get. Wes' price tag wasnt his fault, and yet his stats through his career is so much better than Davis' and there is only 14 months age difference and Wes has done it in different leagues, languages but yet we should give Davis a chance. I hear the allegation that Wes doesnt add anything to the team but I see that and I can easily argue he provides more impact to the team than Davis. Davis holds the ball up well and links sometimes well with individuals but not enough, provides no goal threat and looks to have no potential to get better as a finisher. Like most on here I have watched every minute of Davis' pitch time and I've watched Wes' preseason and all his PL games and some people have wildly different perception on both of them, which seems very skewed. For me, I just dont see anything to justify Davis getting a run in the team, he hasnt earned it with his prior contribution unless people are just happy with an average striker who holds the ball up well but doesnt score. If that is sufficient then fine. If Samatta doesnt work out, we dont get another striker or Samatta gets injured then we have no choice but use Davis. Happy to use him in the final ten minutes of games to close out wins but as for a run in the first team I hope we get another striker in before the close of the window and Davis is third choice because I dont think he adds anything of note and service wont be better than when we were in the championship. I'll be gutted if he does get significant minutes for the closing games of the season because it does make it harder in our battle to stay up. Hopefully with Samatta and another, that wont be the case!!! Nick, you can throw stats at me all day long and you can accuse me of writing Wesley off too early, that’s fine, I’m down with that. My opinion of Wesley after 20 games is that he isn’t good enough for this level. I really, really want to be proven wrong and I may well be. I’ve been guilty of being overly critical of Nakamba which, if he keeps up his current form, is making me look silly. I like Davis, I think he has all the attributes to be a very decent striker and I think he’s a better option than Wesley. I think he’s a better player. It might be that he’s also a better player than Samatta, I hope not, but we’ll see over the next few months. One thing I’m not willing to do is write him off based on stats because he’s shown on plenty of occasions that he has a lot of potential. Whether he underperformed because of Bruce, who knows? Who cares! He’ll get his chances and whoever performs in training and on match days will get their chance. Davis will see plenty more game time this year and I am more than comfortable with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 15 minutes ago, Elton said: I wonder what your eyes and stats thought of Grealish as a 19 year old because 19 year olds rarely improve.. Ahh I said I watched with my eyes and then used stats to back it up. I thought Jack was a talent so didn’t need to look at stats....you missed that part of my prior argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 2 hours ago, nick76 said: No proof of that in his career Yh that 15yr career... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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