Follyfoot Posted June 2, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) Not sure if this has been covered in the thread these young Tory whippersnappers Have a long way to go to upstage the old Guard. Jonathan Aitken with this sword of truth and shield of justice, Tarzan and the Westlands helicopter fiasco And my personal favourite, Anti immigration anti gay Tory, Harvey Proctor who was found in bed with a black rent boy. Special mention also to the fella who was found strung up Wearing stockings and suspenders with a segment of orange in his mouth Edited June 2, 2020 by Follyfoot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: They're back to parroting party lines on Twitter I'm sure the Whips encourage them into it , presumably because most MP's constituents aren't particularly active on twitter and won't see its a copy and paste , here's another example that no doubt was posted in the Labour thread but I'll add it here for context . of course, I'm sure there will be those that say this was a clever genius ploy by labour and not the same thing at all . Edited June 2, 2020 by tonyh29 removed an extra "ploy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 2, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: I'm sure the Whips encourage them into it , presumably because most MP's constituents aren't particularly active on twitter and won't see its a copy and paste , here's another example that no doubt was posted in the Labour thread but I'll add it here for context . of course, I'm sure there will be those that say this was a clever genius ploy by labour ploy and not the same thing at all . This was a clever genius ploy by Labour and not the same thing at all . 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 it's like the Bat symbol, but for any criticism of the Tories. Staggeringly fast and efficient. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 alas, the bat got eaten so It has been renamed the hypocrisy radar , its clear its working its probably also worth reading the post as it didn't defend anything it pointed out that it's not a ploy restricted to the Tories and that its probably Whip driven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 What's the relevancy though? Labour haven't been in power for 10 years. Is the point that: it's ok because Labour did it? All parties do it so the Tories are fine to do it? The Tories are in control, they should be held to a higher standard. If the quality of our political discourse is 'well the opposition party did it just this once, so it's fine to do it' then we are doomed. This is the Tory thread, not the Labour and I am not a Labour supporter or member so I don't understand why other than to muddy the waters. This latest 'Ah but' is from the bloke who pushed back a constituent writing a letter to his MP (in government) about the behaviour of the chief adviser of his party (also in government) with 'well did you also mention the Labour politician who also broke the rules' so we both know the answer there. I will no longer engage in good faith. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Just to go back to my green ink letter writing. I’ve seen a few of the responses to similar letters to mine. Every time, the (always lengthy) response breaks down in to three sections: Section 1 - thanks for getting in touch, I’ve passed on the feelings of my constituents. Quote had I received a call from a constituent seeking advice on similar circumstances, I would have advised against travel. Section 2 - that Labour bloke got caught sitting on a bench, so they’re all at it really when you look at it Section 3 - which I thought was the most interesting, he’s too important to sack Quote However, disruption to the decision-making process will not help the situation In fairness, because the few letters I’ve seen have been quite different, the responses have been quite different and sort of tried to address the main gripe of the individual complaint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 good faith I can just imagine the reaction had I gone into the non labour supporters thread and posted that image showing how labour were cutting and pasting the same reply within a minute of each other Re cummings .. There would have been cries of "deflection " and accusations of defending Cummings . I don't trawl twitter, so I don't get notification of every transgression the Tories make , when it was raised as here they go parroting again , I was interested to see more , to get some context for myself , one of the google hits lead to the aforementioned Cummins parroting tweet , i thought you'd be interested in it as perhaps twitter missed it , you're not a labour supporter, so I thought you'd be equally annoyed with them about their use of copy and paste. But , seeing as the subject was raised in here instead of the Labour thread where VT now knows it could have gone (you're all welcome) , it's relevant to reply to that comment surely ? What next people post about America, and we reply in the TV show thread ? ... its not that difficult is it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 I don't know how I'd fix it, but it seems to me that party politics, particularly whips, makes representative democracy a bit of a sham. It's probably been this way for a very long time, but when you can see at a glance dozens of MPs unquestioningly parroting the same lines, verbatim, it's hard to feel that they represent anyone outside of Westminster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 13 hours ago, LondonLax said: I think it’s just Mogg and his obsession with tradition. Can’t change the way things have always been done just because of a health scare. Clearly it is partly about Rees-Mogg's 'obsession with tradition', but it's important to be clear that his 'obsession with tradition' and his reactionary politics are absolutely one and the same thing. @chrisp65 is right to draw the parallel to his comments on Grenfell; the connecting thread is that he has no care for - hasn't even tried to understand, in some cases very ostentatiously not trying to understand - the lives of people poorer, less white, less privileged, less healthy than himself. All that being said, I also think @Davkaus is right to highlight that Johnson is just visibly more confident in the chamber when he has full benches braying behind him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 It's mental. But I'm sure someone will be along to tell me that a Labour MP stepped on a snail so this is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Section 2 - that Labour bloke got caught sitting on a bench, so they’re all at it really when you look at it No mention of the other 4 offenders ...shocking , who do I write to , to complain ? Starmer came out a few days back and said he would have sacked Cummings , he doesn't appear to have commented about the bloke on the bench .. We seem to differ on the view that all transgression are created equally , without me having to go off to another thread to ask the question , do you think they should all have resigned \ been sacked ? ( irrespective of party just to be clear) Edited June 2, 2020 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Rosie Duffield - resigned Neil Ferguson - resigned Catherine Calderwood - resigned None of them were the lead advisor to the PM, who broke the rules twice and potentially risked spreading the virus to another part of the country. Next. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted June 2, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: No mention of the other 4 offenders ...shocking , who do I write to , to complain ? Starmer came out a few days back and said he would have sacked Cummings , he doesn't appear to have commented about the bloke on the bench .. We seem to differ on the view that all transgression are created equally , without me having to go off to another thread to ask the question , do you think they should all have resigned \ been sacked ? The guy on the bench was the Welsh Health Minister, it would be well beyond Starmer’s powers to sack him even if he wanted to. As it happens he was also inside his own constituency, his crime was, literally, sitting down. He was within walking distance of home, he was allowed in that park, he was allowed to buy food, he wasn’t supposed to sit down. Not all crimes are equal in the game of whataboutery top trumps. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I don't know how I'd fix it, but it seems to me that party politics, particularly whips, makes representative democracy a bit of a sham. It's probably been this way for a very long time, but when you can see at a glance dozens of MPs unquestioningly parroting the same lines, verbatim, it's hard to feel that they represent anyone outside of Westminster. Agreed ... I think long time ago it was discussed in one of the Bolitics forums , a theory that every MP should be independent , guess it would remove whips but I don't think anything would ever get resolved ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) Think he's quite lucky that there's so much else going on that this story hasn't had a lot of traction: Cabinet minister Robert Jenrick who is accused of bias in £1billion planning row was lobbied by the developer at a Tory fundraising dinner just weeks before approving the luxury housing project 'A Cabinet Minister accused of 'bias' in a £1billion planning row was lobbied by the developer at a Tory fundraising dinner just weeks before approving the luxury housing project, The Mail on Sunday can reveal. Housing Secretary Robert Jenrick last night admitted that tycoon Richard Desmond and his team raised the subject of their 1,500-home planning application with him when they were on the same table at a Conservative Party dinner last November. But Mr Jenrick insisted he shut the conversation down immediately. He faced calls to quit last week after it emerged he had approved the £1billion application from Mr Desmond's Northern and Shell corporation to rejuvenate part of London's Docklands just one day before a local council tax hike would have cost the firm an extra £40million. In doing so, he overruled opposition from planning officials and the local council. When challenged in the High Court over apparent bias in the timing, Mr Jenrick quashed his approval for the development, called Westferry Printworks. However, it can now be revealed that the application was raised with Mr Jenrick at the Tories' annual fundraiser, the Carlton Club Political Dinner, where tickets cost more than £900. Mr Jenrick sat next to Mr Desmond at the club in St James's, alongside Northern and Shell's commercial director and senior figures from Mace, the project's construction partners. Last night, Mr Jenrick said Mr Desmond had talked about it, albeit briefly. His spokesman said: 'They were put on the same table, although Mr Jenrick was not aware of this prior to arriving at the venue. 'The developers did raise their application, but Mr Jenrick informed them that it would not be appropriate for them to discuss the matter with him, or for him to pass comment on it.' The planned housing project on the site of the former Daily Express printworks on the Isle of Dogs, East London, was given the green light on January 14, eight weeks after the dinner. However, Mr Jenrick was accused of bias after it emerged that he had overruled advice from the Independent Planning Inspectorate and local council amid concerns that there was not enough affordable housing included in the plans. And there was fury that his approval came just a day before Tower Hamlets Council hiked rates on a local building tax called the Community Infrastructure Levy. Council officials say the timing would have saved Mr Desmond, the former owner of the Express newspaper group, between £30million and £50million. After legal action in March over the timing of the decision, the High Court ordered Mr Jenrick's department to disclose documents about the deal. Rather than comply with this order, Mr Jenrick accepted that his original decision had been 'unlawful by reason of apparent bias', quashed his decision and said he would take no further part in decisions about the application.' more on link: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8373141/Cabinet-minister-accused-bias-1billion-planning-row.html EDIT: It seems like a very unfortunate coincidence that this apparently random seating arrangement just happened to locate *everybody involved in the Docklands project* at the same table as the minister responsible. Edited June 2, 2020 by HanoiVillan 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: The guy on the bench was the Welsh Health Minister, it would be well beyond Starmer’s powers to sack him even if he wanted to. As it happens he was also inside his own constituency, his crime was, literally, sitting down. He was within walking distance of home, he was allowed in that park, he was allowed to buy food, he wasn’t supposed to sit down. Not all crimes are equal in the game of whataboutery top trumps. What weak leadership , Starmer out ( Ok, i didn't know who bench man was specifically) Now i know the specifics , I agree, bench man did nothing wrong .. but there are others who I won't name for risk of them being on a copy and paste list who did transgress . The lock down rules have been badly thought out but who came into contact with more people Cummings or the one who went to a funeral with 100 + mourners .... both broke rules , should both be sacked ? or should an apology have been enough , hypothetically of course taking on board that Cummings didn't / hasn't actually apologised. the other issue around Cummings , is the second breach of rules , which suggests a complete disdain for the rules , however it would appear that the person who claimed to have spotted him on the second visit , has confessed he made this up " for comedy value " , i don't know if that second visit was the catalyst for a lot of public opinion v other non repeat offenders ? Also , you're better than this whataboutery bullshit , if every comment is going to be exempt for discussion unless it contains anti tory sentiment , there isn't really a lot of point ... that's not me taking my ball and going home , its just in a conversation about Cummings being sacked or resigning , you have to be able to cite some examples , even if they are football players Edited June 2, 2020 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 The 2nd breach of rules was the trip to Barnard Castle, that Cummings himself admitted. Unless you believe his tale around testing his eyes on his wife's birthday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 The trouble is, there are very few people that can be compared with Cummings. I know I’m repeating myself, but he attends SAGE and relays their advice to the Prime Minister and then writes the governement’s policy for them, some of which becomes law. There are so few people in that category, that then did anything approaching what Cummings did. It really is a case apart. Whether 6 Labour MP’s have been caught out or a Liberal has licked a door handle or in the case of Plaid, one of them got in to some sort of domestic abuse fight, it’s all very much lower tier stuff. Like, if Kevin from Blackpool hangs out with paedo’s, that’s bad. If a Prince hangs out with convicted paedo’s that’s also bad. But kind of a bigger deal. It’s that same sort of thing. it’s people in positions of power and influence and authority undermining the very system they are supposed to represent. MP’s will always be caught out doing dumb nasty selfish stuff, the job attracts that sort of person. But if someone is a higher tier and they make the rules, then they are going to get far more scrutiny. Like when Major was PM and wanted a return to family values and then it turns out he’s scuttling Edwina Curry on the regular. It’s a far bigger deal he’s doing that than some other MP from some other party is also a shagger. So it is disheartening when constantly having to debate whataboutery. Even with my own MP, who clearly either didn’t know the facts he was trying to add in, or presumed I wouldn’t. Or, like others, presumed if I’m anti tory then I must be pro Labour. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, chrisp65 said: So it is disheartening when constantly having to debate whataboutery. Even with my own MP, who clearly either didn’t know the facts he was trying to add in, or presumed I wouldn’t. Or, like others, presumed if I’m anti tory then I must be pro Labour. Exactly this. Instead of discussing each case in its own merit, it turns into a partisan slinging match and the point about Cummings' behaviour is totally lost. The bloke took the piss, especially considering his position and it should not be a partisan discussion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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