bannedfromHandV Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 27 minutes ago, bickster said: One is a "victimless crime" the other has a victim (or two to be more precise). Both are bad, equally as bad. One says he's a sex pest the other says he's corrupt Let’s just settle on him being a corrupt sex pest. Im okay with that. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 Really, though, is anything going to happen? I've often called Britain a mini-America. We do the same things as them, just a few years later on. Like we're behind the trend and trying to catch up, but it takes a while. Seems the same is true politically. An utter shambles, but no-one will really care and the Conservatives will win at the next election because "anyone but Corbyn lolz". It's a **** nightmare. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 32 minutes ago, bobzy said: the Conservatives will win at the next election because "anyone but Corbyn lolz" Will they? They didn't last time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 22 minutes ago, snowychap said: Will they? They didn't last time. We can go down the technicality route, but we still have a Conservative PM. They aren't the ones losing - the majority of the country are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 51 minutes ago, snowychap said: Will they? They didn't last time. They need to find another 13 seats just to recoup what they'll lose in Scotland (all of them I'd imagine). They're also likely to lose a fair proportion of the 21 they hold in London. I'm concerned about the poorer areas of the north east and West Midlands. A lot of those guys voted heavily for Brexit and I think they're likely to swing from Labour to the NF party and LibDems. I think the opposition parties are right to try and paint him as a sexist/raging sex pest. If they can destroy his relationship with Female voters (no pun intended) that might be enough to undermine him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 30, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 30, 2019 5 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: If they can destroy his relationship with Female voters (no pun intended) that might be enough to undermine him. Not sure his popularity was ever that high there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 2 hours ago, bickster said: One is a "victimless crime" the other has a victim (or two to be more precise). Both are bad, equally as bad. One says he's a sex pest the other says he's corrupt Corruption is not a victimless crime. The victims of the alleged crime in this instance were: The businesses which missed out on the grants - their owners, staff, prospective future supplier, etc. London taxpayers, whose money was needlessly diverted to an incompetent charlatan The wider population of London and the UK, who experience the continuing erosion of the basic values that allow a country to run fairly and effectively 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 30, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 30, 2019 15 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Corruption is not a victimless crime. The victims of the alleged crime in this instance were: The businesses which missed out on the grants - their owners, staff, prospective future supplier, etc. London taxpayers, whose money was needlessly diverted to an incompetent charlatan The wider population of London and the UK, who experience the continuing erosion of the basic values that allow a country to run fairly and effectively hence the quotation marks, it is however not a crime against a specific individual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 sexually incontinent compulsive liar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 57 minutes ago, bobzy said: We can go down the technicality route The 'technicality route' where they didn't win the election and returned with fewer MPs than they had done before and not enough to have a majority government? The point was that if it was just a case of 'anyone but Corbyn lolz' then it would have applied last time, too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, bickster said: hence the quotation marks, it is however not a crime against a specific individual Not the usual definition of a victimless crime though. Typically means stuff like homosexuality (where banned), sex work, etc. - i.e. crimes against morality. Corruption really does have specific victims, it's just they are so great in number. We don't call a bomb attack a victimless crime because 50 different people were hurt at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 Boris absolutely romped the leadership vote (no pun intended) and I just can't fathom why. He spent years playing the fool and couldn't even be bothered to turn up to the debates yet he stormed it. Just how and why? He gets the top job and promises to sort Brexit, but he's brought the square root of nothing to the table. I just can't fathom how anyone can look at that and say "I am the best person for the job, its a bloody mess but I'll sort it out" then come in and do nothing but light fires everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 3D visionairies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 30, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Corruption really does have specific victims, it's just they are so great in number. Do you have any evidence of who these victims are? Is there anything to suggest that this money would have been allocated elsewhere and to who? Did the pot run dry? I would definitely call a crime involving prostitution a crime with a victim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, bickster said: Do you have any evidence of who these victims are? Is there anything to suggest that this money would have been allocated elsewhere and to who? Did the pot run dry? I would definitely call a crime involving prostitution a crime with a victim The foreign trip grants were awarded via a competitive process, so obviously whichever business would have got that grant in Jennifer Arcurri's place is a direct victim. And yes, you can nitpick over specifis, but the concept of a "victimless crimes" is a specific term in political and legal philosophy, which include crimes that some people perceive to be purely moral and self-harming in nature - e.g. drug abuse, prostitution, homosexuality, attempted suicide, etc. This definition has never included acts of financial corruption in public office. Edited September 30, 2019 by KentVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 30, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, KentVillan said: The foreign trip grants were awarded via a competitive process, Yes and no, my understanding was that she was there in addition not instead. Though I could be wrong but that was the impression I got from the reports I read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, bickster said: Yes and no, my understanding was that she was there in addition not instead. Though I could be wrong but that was the impression I got from the reports I read I think you're right in terms of how it was presented at the time, but grants are awarded from a finite pool of money, so any misallocation of a grant has a knock-on effect on others (rather like insurance fraud). I get your point that the victims are very great in number and relatively "diluted", but they really are victims. The concept of victimless crimes was more significant when we used to criminalise things like attempted suicide and homosexual acts between consenting adults. I just found it a bit tough to see the term being applied to something which causes a lot of direct, measurable harm to individuals. Having spent a bit of time working and living in endemically corrupt countries, I think we underestimate how viral this kind of corruption is. The UK is certainly a major global facilitator of corruption (to our shame), but we are fortunate that at the domestic level you can still run a successful business without bribing anyone, paying protection money, etc. Letting Boris get away with this one would set a really bad precedent. Edited September 30, 2019 by KentVillan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 30, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Letting Boris get away with this one would set a really bad precedent. Oh I agree with that completely 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 57 minutes ago, snowychap said: The 'technicality route' where they didn't win the election and returned with fewer MPs than they had done before and not enough to have a majority government? The point was that if it was just a case of 'anyone but Corbyn lolz' then it would have applied last time, too. I disagree - I think the anti-Corbyn feeling (general) is a lot stronger than it has ever been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 1 minute ago, bobzy said: I disagree - I think the anti-Corbyn feeling (general) is a lot stronger than it has ever been. It's not exactly unjustified. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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