Refugee crisis

[MakemineVanilla]

The area I live in has been taken over by white middle class people and Tory voters.

 

#prayformooney 

 

He definitely gets my sympathy because middle-class Tories aren't what they used to be.

They are usually tax-dodging builders or plumbers with three cars and two vans, creating long-running disputes about parking and access - some even have boats and caravans parked in their drives, for goodness sake.

[Awol]

The area I live in has been taken over by white middle class people and Tory voters.

 

#prayformooney 

 

He definitely gets my sympathy because middle-class Tories aren't what they used to be.

They are usually tax-dodging builders or plumbers with three cars and two vans, creating long-running disputes about parking and access - some even have boats and caravans parked in their drives, for goodness sake.

Comrade Jez will learn all these bloody aspirational working/middle class folks.  #nationaliseitall

[Jarpie]

You can be reasonable and then you can make stupid generalisations like '15% of Muslims are radical'

I believe I said 15% of the people who are coming might be fundamentalists/fanatics/supremacists

Yeah, and 7.375% of them might be secret My Little Pony fans, what's your point? You basically made up a figure based on conclusions drawn a few dubious polls conducted on a grand total of 0.00000875% of the Muslim population and used it to make assumptions of the refugees. Not bad for a day's work.

My original question was if people would welcome in refugees/migrants from the east europe if something similar would happen as in Syria, and the said refugees would be 75% men and from the areas which would be known for having christian neo-nazis, I doubt it very much.

Read all of my messages in this topic, instead of cherry picking one poorly made one from the many arguments I've made.

But your original question was based on a chain of ifs and buts.

 

And last, let me ask you people question who will undoubetly call me racist or hate-monger, if same thing what has happened in Syria, would happen in a country like...say...Romania, Czech, Bulgaria, Hungary or other eastern european states and you'd suddenly start to get 300 000 - 400 000 refugees, and they'd be from the areas which are very known for having a lot of fundamentalist christian neo-nazis, would you invite them all in if 75% of them would be men with good chance of, say, 15% being neo-nazis? That's something like 20 000 - 30 000 white supremacists all across europe.

IF this was happening in a European country, and IF we took in 400000 refugees, and IF 75% of them were male, and IF 15% of them were nazis, so IF we had 30,000 white supremacists here, and IF they were let to do whatever they wanted in our country (or countries) then yes, that might be a problem.

But you've made that scenario up. It's in your head. It is not comparable to what's happening with Syrian refugees. So agreeing with your scenario being a bad thing is not the same as agreeing that accepting some syrian refugees is a bad thing.

Nobody is challenging your right to question the taking in of refugees. It's coming out with made up scenarios and statistics that bothers people.

 

It's like me saying "Well, Jarpie, let me ask you this. If this was happening in America, and we took in 200,000 American refugees, and 99% of them were totally normal, hard working, upstanding members of the community who would integrate into society and get a job and eventually contribute as much, if not more, to our country than any other native citizen, would you still think taking in refugees is a bad thing?"

You can't disagree with that question. But it bears no relevance to what is actually happening because I've made it up.

I already said that it was badly made argument, and you ignored pretty much everything else I've said. Hypotheticals are by their nature are "ifs and butts", better question probably would've been  that would you welcome in hundreds of thousands of refugees of which 75% would be men from Ukraine if Russia would start invading it, which I don't think is that far-fetched?

That is a much more reasonable question. Because you've only used one statistic which, as far as I know, is true (that 75% of Syrian refugees are male). You haven't included made up statistics and assumptions about those refugees being terrorists or extremists.

So the answer to your second question is yes. Of course I would welcome them. It would be exactly the same as what is happening with the Syrian refugees so I see no difference. And to be honest I'm struggling to see your point now that you've removed the assumptions about them being extremists.

Can you see how your second question is completely different to your first one?

If I'd go back 1,5-2 years in your posting history, would I find posts where you'd call europeans to bring in ukranian refugees from the Crimea and Ukraine when Russians invaded Crimea?

 

Oh btw, someone gave me this link in intarwebz, Syrian girl talking about the refugee situation.

[coda]

Flip side of immigration though - no Muslim immigrants in Malmø, no Zlatan...

 if you are trying to share credit out fairly does Slobodan Milošević also get a shout out ?

Zlatan was born in Sweden in the early 80s, so no

Didnt know that ... I could have sworn I watched a program on TV where they said he was hated in Bosnia for not playing for them once the war was over giving the impression he had left during the ethnic cleansing stage and not come back  ....

It may have been the pre-match segment on the Beeb during the World Cup. Zlatan was called a traitor by one of the interviewees while it showed Begovic's proud relatives. 

[coda]

News on the internets that Saudi Arabia has offered to build 200 mosques in Germany rather than take in any refugees.

[Paddywhack]

News on the internets that Saudi Arabia has offered to build 200 mosques in Germany rather than take in any refugees.

I nearly have a joke.

Something about that costing them an arm and a leg...and a hand..or something. And it being day light robbery.

I dunno, I'll work on it.

[Jarpie]

Now that I've watched the video I don't agree most of her video and/or her blaming west for the problems in Syria and elsewhere of middle-east, but she does make a good point at the start of the video that a lot of people from elsewhere of middle-east are claiming to be Syrians because they are now more readily taken to the europe.

As I've said before, one of my problems with the intaking all those migrants and refugees so readily of whom we can't possible know who they are or where they actually come from, is that they are taking the places of those who needs the help most and they fill up the quotas.

Before anyone says that I don't trust them becaues they're arabs and/or muslims, wrong, I don't trust anyone, be they white, black, arab, asian, etc by default, period. Why would I? I don't know who they are, so I don't know are they trustworthy; trust is earned, not given. I wouldn't expect anyone I know to trust me by default either.

I have genuine question to others in here, do you think does the european states and/or politicians want to really help the Syrian (or middle-eastern) people, or do you think that they just want to bring in the people who will do the jobs which the europeans generally don't want to do?

I think I said before that I've learned to be very cynical realistic when it comes to the politicians and media, so I don't believe it for a second that they actually want to bring in the refugees who'd be the elderly, children, sick or women/families but instead the potentially (at least decently) educated young people who will do the low-salary jobs.

I'd have quite a bit to say about how I see the modern european people, especially young generations and our welfare societies/cultures, and the effect it have had on us but it'd be too off-topic, maybe I'll start a new one or find suitable existing one.

[MakemineVanilla]

Now that I've watched the video I don't agree most of her video

It is an interesting take on events and even if much might be dismissed, I think it helps to focus minds on the bigger picture rather than just the narrative our media is running with.

Mission drift definitely seems to be an aspect we have to take note of and not get distracted by emotion or more parochial issues like immigration.

[Awol]

News on the internets that Saudi Arabia has offered to build 200 mosques in Germany rather than take in any refugees.

Ah lovely, the solidarity of the Muslim Ummah in full flower. Quick enough to act in unison when someone draws a cartoon of Mohammed, not so much if it means actually helping other Muslims.

Of course they will be Wahhabi mosques to suitably poison the minds of all who enter. Al Hijra at work.

[omariqy]

News on the internets that Saudi Arabia has offered to build 200 mosques in Germany rather than take in any refugees.

Ah lovely, the solidarity of the Muslim Ummah in full flower. Quick enough to act in unison when someone draws a cartoon of Mohammed, not so much if it means actually helping other Muslims.

Of course they will be Wahhabi mosques to suitably poison the minds of all who enter. Al Hijra at work.

 

I hear they will give free parking for visitors. As long as a woman isn't driving.

[Dr_Pangloss]

Saudi Arabia is a truly disgraceful country. 

[Stevo985]

 

If I'd go back 1,5-2 years in your posting history, would I find posts where you'd call europeans to bring in ukranian refugees from the Crimea and Ukraine when Russians invaded Crimea?

 

 

I have no idea. I don't think I discussed the situation much on here. You certainly wouldn't see me opposing it.

But I don't see the relevance of that question. 

If I'm not opposed to Syrian refugees, why would I be opposed to Ukrainian ones?

I don't see what you're getting at. I have a feeling you don't either.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Stevo985

[Jarpie]

Now that I've watched the video I don't agree most of her video

It is an interesting take on events and even if much might be dismissed, I think it helps to focus minds on the bigger picture rather than just the narrative our media is running with.

Mission drift definitely seems to be an aspect we have to take note of and not get distracted by emotion or more parochial issues like immigration.

I agree, people should be very distrustful of the media as they try to push their own politics, their interests or the interests of their owners, same goes for the public/civil servants. Here in Finland our immigration bureau is really pushing for taking new immigrants in and making a loads of more reception centers around the country, and due experience, I don't think their intentions are purely humanitarian.

They are converting unused industrial etc facilities which are forbidden to be converted into buildings for habitation into the reception centers by using outsourced contracts, and as I know how finnish public offices and society works, they will give the contracts to the companies they know, have stock in or have some sort of relationship with.

[AshVilla]

Good to see Macedonia applying the same policy as Hungary i hope Serbia follow suit

Edited September 10, 2015 by AshVilla

[NurembergVillan]

Flip side of immigration though - no Muslim immigrants in Malmø, no Zlatan...

 if you are trying to share credit out fairly does Slobodan Milošević also get a shout out ?

Zlatan was born in Sweden in the early 80s, so no [emoji4]

Didnt know that ... I could have sworn I watched a program on TV where they said he was hated in Bosnia for not playing for them once the war was over giving the impression he had left during the ethnic cleansing stage and not come back  ....

His father was a Bosniak Muslim who moved to Malmø in the 70s. Zlatan's mother I think was a Serb or Croat immigrant.

[Jarpie]

 

If I'd go back 1,5-2 years in your posting history, would I find posts where you'd call europeans to bring in ukranian refugees from the Crimea and Ukraine when Russians invaded Crimea?

 

 

I have no idea. I don't think I discussed the situation much on here. You certainly wouldn't see me opposing it.

But I don't see the relevance of that question. 

If I'm not opposed to Syrian refugees, why would I be opposed to Ukrainian ones?

I don't see what you're getting at. I have a feeling you don't either.

I've seen so many people spouting how europe needs to bring in all those poor middle-easterns in here and how they need to be helped, and how we need to show solidarity yada yada, just to show that they're supposedly "so progressive" and/or "so good people", but the same people were so **** quiet when there was that earthquake in nepal six months ago, and it didn't get nearly the same attention in the media.

I find those people to be utter hypocrites, if they'd really be such a good people they would've raised the same storm that european states need to bring in refugees from Nepal and pressured the european states to give much more humanitarian aid to the Nepal to bring them back up.

Same goes for the Ukraine in 2014 when the rebels started to fight in Ukraine and Russians invaded Crimea, sure it got media attention and it was followed by the news but I didn't see anyone saying how we need to bring in the Ukranian refugees from Crimea or Ukraine to the europe.

I was poking to see if you are one of those hypocrties, as so many others are, when the next big crisis starts somewhere in the world, I trust you to call out EU to bring the refugees in, as you are calling in to welcome the current migrants.

About the current refugee/migrant situation and the Ukranian crisis:

The news stories were much more carefully worded and the same leftist and "progressive" journalists/media who are now crying about the poor down-trodden syrian (or "syrian", depending who you believe) refugees (or "refugees", depending on who you believe), and anyone who questions them is a **** right-wing neo-nazi racist, made it so **** sure that there's not a single one of those "human interest" stories or photographs of the children in the battlefields to garner sympathy for the Ukranians, also I didn't see any stories how the ukranians' familes were broken, or how their lives are ruined due the warzones where the rebels and russians started to fight, at least not in the single one of the finnish news sites nor in the international european media I saw.

Neither I saw any interviews from the Ukranian refugee camps, or footage shown how utter shit are the conditions in the said camps.

Just so that you don't think I like conservative and/or right-wing media any better, I don't. They are equally manipulative and hypocritical as the leftie/"progressive" ones.

I just want even a single impartial and neutral news media who will just report the **** news without **** editorializing and trying to affect the public opinion toward the causes/people/politics they themselves hold or agree with, the finnish equivalent for BBC, Yle, used to be like that but now they've gone more and more toward the left from the impartial/centre.

Disclaimer: I used "crying about the poor down-trodden" just to show how differently the media depicts the Syrian and Ukranian conflicts, and Nepal disaster, I think all of those three things are pretty much equally horrible events, and the people who would need our aid, should get it.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Jarpie

[snowychap]

 

Check My Area

and enter LS19 6NT.

Ah.

Just compared it to my postcode on there and it's almost the polar opposite.

Unemployment stands at 87% higher than the national average...The social classification of the residents is C2DE

[Rugeley Villa]

slightly off topic but me,my missus and her sister have been feeding an old homeless man for the past two weeks hes also got slight mental health problems we think. we have been making him sandwiches,soup etc etc and also got him ten fags as we saw him picking up fag ends, infact my missus is going out in the car in a moment with some food and drink for him and also a suitcase that you can pull because hes always humping carrier bags around with him. we are even thinking of getting him a motel for the night so he can clean up as he stinks, also ive threw some of my old clothes his way. anyway we dont know the full details yet, i mean it could be self inflicted why hes homeless or maybe thats how he wants it although i doubt it very much but the point immaking is that we have so many people on the streets or have many people in need of their own place but the council wont house them because they are not foreign or whatever other excuse they come up with but you get loads of migrants on the march and its yes we will house them. granted a lot of these migrants need help but there are loads that are jumping on the gravy train and its an absolute disgrace.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Rugeley Villa

[HanoiVillan]

 

If I'd go back 1,5-2 years in your posting history, would I find posts where you'd call europeans to bring in ukranian refugees from the Crimea and Ukraine when Russians invaded Crimea?

 

 

I have no idea. I don't think I discussed the situation much on here. You certainly wouldn't see me opposing it.

But I don't see the relevance of that question. 

If I'm not opposed to Syrian refugees, why would I be opposed to Ukrainian ones?

I don't see what you're getting at. I have a feeling you don't either.

I've seen so many people spouting how europe needs to bring in all those poor middle-easterns in here and how they need to be helped, and how we need to show solidarity yada yada, just to show that they're supposedly "so progressive" and/or "so good people", but the same people were so **** quiet when there was that earthquake in nepal six months ago, and it didn't get nearly the same attention in the media.

I find those people to be utter hypocrites, if they'd really be such a good people they would've raised the same storm that european states need to bring in refugees from Nepal and pressured the european states to give much more humanitarian aid to the Nepal to bring them back up.

Same goes for the Ukraine in 2014 when the rebels started to fight in Ukraine and Russians invaded Crimea, sure it got media attention and it was followed by the news but I didn't see anyone saying how we need to bring in the Ukranian refugees from Crimea or Ukraine to the europe.

I was poking to see if you are one of those hypocrties, as so many others are, when the next big crisis starts somewhere in the world, I trust you to call out EU to bring the refugees in, as you are calling in to welcome the current migrants.

About the current refugee/migrant situation and the Ukranian crisis:

The news stories were much more carefully worded and the same leftist and "progressive" journalists/media who are now crying about the poor down-trodden syrian (or "syrian", depending who you believe) refugees (or "refugees", depending on who you believe), and anyone who questions them is a **** right-wing neo-nazi racist, made it so **** sure that there's not a single one of those "human interest" stories or photographs of the children in the battlefields to garner sympathy for the Ukranians, also I didn't see any stories how the ukranians' familes were broken, or how their lives are ruined due the warzones where the rebels and russians started to fight, at least not in the single one of the finnish news sites nor in the international european media I saw.

Neither I saw any interviews from the Ukranian refugee camps, or footage shown how utter shit are the conditions in the said camps.

Just so that you don't think I like conservative and/or right-wing media any better, I don't. They are equally manipulative and hypocritical as the leftie/"progressive" ones.

I just want even a single impartial and neutral news media who will just report the **** news without **** editorializing and trying to affect the public opinion toward the causes/people/politics they themselves hold or agree with, the finnish equivalent for BBC, Yle, used to be like that but now they've gone more and more toward the left from the impartial/centre.

Disclaimer: I used "crying about the poor down-trodden" just to show how differently the media depicts the Syrian and Ukranian conflicts, and Nepal disaster, I think all of those three things are pretty much equally horrible events, and the people who would need our aid, should get it.

Eh? I must be forgetting those streams of Ukrainian and Nepalese asylum seekers, I strangely can't seem to recall them at all . . . 

[tonyh29]

Good to see Macedonia applying the same policy as Hungary i hope Serbia follow suit

I know you are talking government rather then people but the inter web is full of videos of decent acts by the Hungarians ... For some reason the media have decide to focus on negatives only though ( who'd have thunk it )

Edited September 10, 2015 by limpid
fixed embed