Uber

[Stevo985]

3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

But it's not odd though, is it, when you consider Uber's share of the market. 

Sure, I'm a qualified and credentialed minicab driver, now I can go and work for all of those other flourishing minicab companies. 

But why have they got such a big share if they're such a terrible employer?
Why do all these people work for them when they pay so terribly?

And if it's as easy for them to find a new job as Bicks suggested it is, then why don't they do it now when working for Uber is so horrible?

 

Doesn't really add up to me.

 

I just think it might be possible that the guy who works for a competing firm is slightly overplaying how terrible Uber are  

[HanoiVillan]

14 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

But why have they got such a big share if they're such a terrible employer?
Why do all these people work for them when they pay so terribly?

And if it's as easy for them to find a new job as Bicks suggested it is, then why don't they do it now when working for Uber is so horrible?

 

Doesn't really add up to me.

 

I just think it might be possible that the guy who works for a competing firm is slightly overplaying how terrible Uber are  

. . . the argument would be that this can be attributed to the natural tendency towards monopoly. I have a Windows operating system and have never tried a different one - have I chosen Windows because it's the best? Uber is the biggest (which position they have gained through operating at a loss) which means they get all the benefits of scale. People take taxis when they are in a hurry, by and large - choosing Uber because there are probably more vehicles nearby is less an endorsement of their business model than a pragmatic decision based on immediate need. And once we acknowledge that customers choose Uber first, for whatever reason, it becomes clear why it's better to work for Uber - they're not a better employer, necessarily, they are just where the customers are. 

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

. . . the argument would be that this can be attributed to the natural tendency towards monopoly. I have a Windows operating system and have never tried a different one - have I chosen Windows because it's the best? Uber is the biggest (which position they have gained through operating at a loss) which means they get all the benefits of scale. People take taxis when they are in a hurry, by and large - choosing Uber because there are probably more vehicles nearby is less an endorsement of their business model than a pragmatic decision based on immediate need. And once we acknowledge that customers choose Uber first, for whatever reason, it becomes clear why it's better to work for Uber - they're not a better employer, necessarily, they are just where the customers are. 

In some cities anyway

[HanoiVillan]

It's also worth remembering what Uber are actually in trouble for here, which is endangering public safety and security by not performing legally-mandated background checks on drivers. And:

Real people have suffered abuse, in British towns and cities, as a result of poorly-performed or non-existent background checks on taxi drivers. 

[bickster]

There's currently some legal doubt as to whether Uber can continue past September pending their appeal. They will appeal but may not be able to operate in the interim period.

 

That has come from Gerald Gouriet QC, the country's leading legal expert in Taxi Licensing Law

 

That is based on the idea that it is a refusal to renew a licence that has lapsed, rather than a revocation

[PompeyVillan]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

But why have they got such a big share if they're such a terrible employer?
Why do all these people work for them when they pay so terribly?

*Snip*

Doesn't really add up to me.

*Snip*

 

That's not the case is it? Apply that logic in a different context, and you could ask, "Why do people accept low paying jobs on zero hour contracts?"

Just because people accept certain conditions it doesn't mean they're happy with them. 

If that is where the work is, that's where the workers will go. The work is there because consumers like the Uber model.

It's not okay to simply let market forces dictate working conditions. That's what has led us to being a grossly inequal society in my opinion. 

[Stevo985]

19 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

That's not the case is it? Apply that logic in a different context, and you could ask, "Why do people accept low paying jobs on zero hour contracts?"

Just because people accept certain conditions it doesn't mean they're happy with them. 

If that is where the work is, that's where the workers will go. The work is there because consumers like the Uber model.

It's not okay to simply let market forces dictate working conditions. That's what has led us to being a grossly inequal society in my opinion. 

But that's different, because that's a scenario where people take the work they can get.

Bicks told us that there were hundreds of taxi firms where these people could work. They're already qualified to do so. So if working for Uber is so shit, why don't they go to these other taxi firms?

[bickster]

@Stevo985

i cant answer your question because there is obviously no single answer.

But in th3 course of scouring 5he news I came across the following blog Uber Driver in London

This piece is entitled Is I.T worth driving for Uber in London

Quote

Is It Worth Driving For Uber In London?

How Much Money Does An Uber Driver Make?

Lots of people ask me how much money can you make with Uber. My answer is always “It Depends”. It depends on how many hours do you work, depends if you hire, finance or own the car to drive, depends on the areas that you drive. It also depends on the type of car that you have, the petrol and maintenance cost, cleaning, parking, wear and tear and so on. Whenever Uber claims that a driver can make between £600 to £800 quid a week it always reminds of the estimated MPG of a car on the manufacturer’s website and the real MPG of that same car on sites like honestjohn.co.uk, for example. Yes, you can achieve that dreamy 94.1 MPG claimed by Toyota. On a downhill, with a back wind, overinflated tyres and behind a huge lorry going 40 miles per hour. Yes, that is about 94-95 miles to the gallon. But who drives like that? Especially in London, one of the worst cities in the world to drive a car. Here are some thoughts before diving into the world of private hire and sign up to drive for Uber:

Hiring VS Buying The Car

Hiring, as I mentioned in this post, is only viable if you want to test the waters with Uber without too much investment or commitment. Well, not really, you would still need at least 600 to 900 quid to hire a car. Most PCO cars hire companies do require a deposit or retainer, and it is rare for it to be less than £500. Most cab renting companies, be it a small player with 5 to 10 cars or a huge company like Enterprise car hire or Europcar, will charge you anywhere from £150 to £200 for the car itself. They will let you arrange your own insurance, or offer you all inclusive deal with full comprehensive private hire insurance for slightly more money. Most companies require a 1-month contract so that they can make a few quid from the car, but they do, for the most part, take care of the maintenance, even tyres, brakes and little repairs. They won’t replace a chipped windscreen, though, so be careful driving behind big lorries on contaminated with rubbish motorways.

 

So let’s do the economics of hiring a car – you would pay £500 deposit, which I would write off, just in case. In my experience, most small players on the minicab hire market will never give you the deposit back. Driving in London has its perks, and one of them is that there will always be some idiot who backs into your car, dings it, scratches it or worse. The other enemy is the kerbs. Those little bastards, lurking around the corner. If you are not experienced driver or come from across the pond like me, chances are you will scratch those nice, shiny wheels. Guess what? You will pay for it one way or another, just ask for your deposit back, and you will see.

Then comes the weekly rental – let’s say a happy medium – £235 a week. That is a £12,220 a year. True, it does include insurance and maintenance, but it is still a lot of money to invest in a business that it is not guaranteed to provide enough income. When you divide the earning per month, it comes to £1,018 per month. That is just the cost of the car. We didn’t factor petrol and cleaning costs, and the latter add up. But that is for later in the article.

Petrol Cost

Ok, the petrol cost is negligible in comparison to what you pay for the car, but in some cases can add a significant impact to the weekly or monthly budget of an Uber driver. Say my 2012 Prius, for example, does around 50 to 55 miles to the gallon. That means you can drive for 400-450 miles before you need to fill up. That is roughly a week’s work, maybe even less. My petrol costs me around £200 a month, give or take, but I will go in depth of my spendings and incomes on a monthly basis on the blog. I assume the fuel costs of running a Honda Insight will be slightly, but not very much higher, although I know drivers who spend well over £400 a month driving a Mondeo or Vauxhall Insignia.

Cleaning And Hoovering

I also clean the car at least twice a week, sometimes more, depends on how the weather is in London, but you already know how it is most of the time…  I personally pay around 6 quid per clean, sometimes 10 if I am too lazy to clean the inside on my own, which most of the time I am, to be honest. I don’t recommend going to those automatic car washes since they can scratch up the paint badly and you might be liable for the damages. Yes, lots of people use them, but you can see the quality of the paint on their cars. Nothing beats hand washing a car and there are plenty of places around London that offer a good deal. There are some offers on they Uber’s website as well, so I will not go into too many details. Let’s just say that I spend about £80 to a £100 quid on cleaning the car every month. That’s 20-25 weekly. It is important because riders don’t like dirty vehicles and can really impact your Uber ratings. I have experienced it myself so I always try to keep the car as clean as possible. Air freshener help as well, but there are plenty of cheap options in store.

Parking Cost

If you are lucky enough to live in an area where you can park freely – kudos to you! If you drive a Prius some councils do not charge anything for a parking permit, but you have to apply in advance for one. For bigger cars like Skoda Superb or the dreaded Insignia, it might be close to a £100 quid a month just to park it there. The really is area dependent so I will not go into details, but you have to keep it in mind, especially if you live in a more central part of town. My council charges over £100 quid for anything bigger than a Prius or Insignia.

Vehicle Maintenance

We will not go in depth here, especially if you are hiring the car. All that will be taken for you at someone else’s expense. But if you do own or lease the car there will be little things you have to do now and then – oil changes, brake pads, tyres. All there are consumables and might be a bit more often than what you are used to after lots and lots of congested city miles.

Uber Driving Income

We talked already about all the expenses associated with having the required vehicle for Uber partnership. Let’s talk now how much money realistically you can expect. Given I haven’t been driving a really long time and I really hope to hear from more experienced drivers than me, here are my experiences with Uber.

I make somewhere between £10 to £15 pounds per hour. That’s it. Definitely not more than that. I guess with a bit of optimising and a bit of luck you can get to £17-£18, but I seriously anyone on UberX is making much more than that. Given that there are plenty of experienced drivers on the platform who have been with the company for a while now and can track patterns and surge pricing I might be wrong, but if you read on the Uber forums I am not too far off.

If you drive 60 hours and with lots and lots of luck you might be able to pull off £1000 a week. In sales. Then comes the hefty 25% commission for the pleasure of partnering with uber. That is £750 a week. £39,000 a year before expenses. £3,250 give or take a month.

When you see that number it doesn’t look too bad, but you have to factor the cost of the car, the number of hours that you work and the surrounding expenses. So let’s say that you hire the car for a year. Your financials would be in the ballpark of £39,000 minus the £12,220 vehicle rental minus the ~£2500 petrol cost (for a Prius) and minus the ~£1200 cleaning costs. That’s  roughly £23,000.

£23,000 a year doesn’t really sound too bad but keep in mind lots and lots of people are joining Uber on a daily basis and the demand in London doesn’t grow nowhere near as fast as the drivers joining the cabbing platform. I’m not sure how much of this income will be sustainable in the future, only time will tell.

You make £23,000 a year but you have no sick days, no paid holidays, no benefits of any kinds. We haven’t even talked about taxes. If you are an honest individual who doesn’t mind paying up all the taxes and everything else due, here is a little table with the tax you will owe to HMRC after your financial year:

	YEAR	MONTH	WEEK
Gross Wage	£23,000	£1,917	£442
Taxable Wage	£12,000	£1,000	£231
Tax Paid	£2,400	£200	£46
Tax-Free Allowance	£11,000	£917	£212
National Insurance	£1,793	£149	£34
Take-home pay	£18,807	£1,567	£362
Student Loan	£0	£0	£0
Pension	£0	£0	£0
Pension HMRC	£0	£0	£0

Now when we draw the line, pay the tax man and count the money, £18,000 is not really a lot of money for a 60 hours work a week.

Final Verdict

Cab driving with Uber is a great option for people who already own a Prius (or Honda Insight) and don’t mind getting the PCO badge on it. Given the cost of Hire and Reward insurance is a lot higher than a normal one and you have to be at least 26 in order to get a decent rate, it is still negligible to the cost of hiring a car and pay all those hefty fees every week. In case you want to buy and finance a car specifically for Uber, or any other minicab in that matter, I would strongly recommend buying a beater off Autotrader or Gumtree and run it till there is no life left in it. Honestly, Uber doesn’t care that much what car you drive so the cheapest option would be just fine. It doesn’t care much about your earnings either, especially afer the recent Uber Pool earnings fiasco. It might affect your ratings a bit but Uber doesn’t send you fares based on rating so you should be ok. Buying a new car just for Uber makes no financial sense for the state the private hire is at the moment and the rapid rise in number within the Uber drivers. If you have any business near Aldgate you can just pop by their office and see the number of drivers they are activating on a daily basis. It is mind blowing. I hear stories about 150-200 people every day. These people will join the Uber ranks just like you hoping to make a quick buck. At the moment the only people who make real money are the ones in the private hire car rentals and the insurance companies.

I read most of the blog tbh, especially his brutally honest financial posts where he details what he earns per week. I really wanted to scream... but you haven’t even earned that because you’ll have to pay tax on the earnings as it's a second income, you haven't depreciated your car, you haven’t allowed for any upcoming repairs etc. The money he thinks he's earning is much less than he himself has even worked out. His calculation above is based on a 60 hour week but I’d note that this guy specialises in late night early morning weekend work when Uber will be surging and he never actually works a 60 hour week, his estimation will be higher than the reality. But even with his flawed logic he's got a 60hr week coming out as a take home of £5.77 an hour. That’s a guy putting himself at risk, amongst drunk people in situations where just obeying the law can get you attacked during unsociable hours.

Why do they stay there? The real answer of course is that eventually the penny drops with these people and they leave. I reckon that happened in March of this year for that guy, his site hasn’t been updated since then

[bickster]

And if you really want to see what the drivers think (some of their logic is often quite bonkers) pop on over to The Uber People forum.

Thats what the drivers really think. A whole independent forum of drivers whinging about Uber

[Risso]

Uber in London are terrible. Drivers with no training or knowledge of London glued to their sat navs. Black cab drivers in my experience are the best in the world.

[peterms]

Guardian letters

Quote

On Friday Uber was stripped of its licence to operate in London due to repeated infractions of regulations around safety (Uber loses licence to operate in London, 23 September). This follows the long-standing concerns about how Uber operates – its dubious taxation arrangements, its corporate model (loss-making, then raising costs and reducing driver pay) and its non-recognition of any worker benefits (sick pay, contracts, holiday etc). The company will appeal anyway, meaning the service will continue potentially for months or potentially even years, irrespective of outcome.

The firm immediately took to the public petitions site Change.org, reproducing its own press release in the form of a petition to “Save your Uber in London”. Have I misunderstood the meaning of a public petition, or is a company producing a petition to protect its own profits something of a confused perversion of this long-standing mode of political participation?

Change.org allows advertisements by companies as long as they are “about public causes”, so they often take the form of petitions. The advertising revenue also allows them to “give the Change.org community an opportunity to provide grassroots support to a petition through promoted petitions”. If I understand this rightly, it means that if you offer them enough money, they’ll use email addresses gathered from genuine grassroots initiatives and will advertise Uber’s petition to as many of their 100 million users as you’d like them to.

Does it still make sense to talk about “public opinion”, a “public outcry” or the “grassroots” in a context where modes of political participation are manufactured as public relations exercises for companies seeking political and legislative advantage?
Luke Samuel
Manchester

• Are there really 40,000 registered drivers on the Uber books in London and, if so, how many of them are full-time (Editorial, 23 September)? I very much doubt that anywhere near this figure could be achieved unless a very large number of people abandon buses and stop using their cars and fares rise to satisfy the drivers need for enough money to make it worthwhile.

You suggest that Uber has been a “lifeline” to people travelling long distances to work unsocial hours for low pay. Even at an “affordable” Uber fare of £15 I would suggest that Uber is unaffordable for such people – it is the equivalent of two hours’ work at minimum wage rates. The main user group will be more affluent people who resent paying black cab rates. Those who can afford neither black cabs nor Uber will be reliant primarily on public transport, mainly buses. If a large group of people use more expensive services, it will have the twin effect of causing more congestion and depleting the existing user base (hence the economic viability) of public transport in London.
Jo Lynch
Liskeard, Cornwall

• US tech firms often proudly boast of their aim and ability to “disrupt” the existing order, as if this were automatically a good thing. Regrettably, their disruption is all too frequently thoughtless of any consequence other than to make a fast buck for themselves. Uber offers a dystopian vision of an unregulated, unsafe, unfair, unstable and uncaring future in which the vast majority of us scrape a living through low-paid work with zero employment rights. Its myopic and selfish users need to recognise this. TfL is right to remove Uber’s licence.
Steve Rouse
Gee Cross, Cheshire

 

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, Risso said:

Uber in London are terrible. Drivers with no training or knowledge of London glued to their sat navs. Black cab drivers in my experience are the best in the world.

It's 2017. A driver that knows his way around without a sat nav isn't worth paying three times the price for. 

Black cabs are a joke.

[Dr_Pangloss]

2 hours ago, Risso said:

Uber in London are terrible. Drivers with no training or knowledge of London glued to their sat navs. Black cab drivers in my experience are the best in the world.

In my experience London black cab drivers are pricks for the most part. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Dr_Pangloss

[bickster]

17 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I just think it might be possible that the guy who works for a competing firm is slightly overplaying how terrible Uber are  

Yep it’s me that took them to an employment tribunal

its also me behind all the bad press they’ve received worldwide

I'm also behind the court case trying to force them to pay VAT

I'm behind every bad thing they’ve ever done

[TheAuthority]

11 hours ago, bickster said:

@Stevo985

i cant answer your question because there is obviously no single answer.

But in th3 course of scouring 5he news I came across the following blog Uber Driver in London

This piece is entitled Is I.T worth driving for Uber in London

I read most of the blog tbh, especially his brutally honest financial posts where he details what he earns per week. I really wanted to scream... but you haven’t even earned that because you’ll have to pay tax on the earnings as it's a second income, you haven't depreciated your car, you haven’t allowed for any upcoming repairs etc. The money he thinks he's earning is much less than he himself has even worked out. His calculation above is based on a 60 hour week but I’d note that this guy specialises in late night early morning weekend work when Uber will be surging and he never actually works a 60 hour week, his estimation will be higher than the reality. But even with his flawed logic he's got a 60hr week coming out as a take home of £5.77 an hour. That’s a guy putting himself at risk, amongst drunk people in situations where just obeying the law can get you attacked during unsociable hours.

Why do they stay there? The real answer of course is that eventually the penny drops with these people and they leave. I reckon that happened in March of this year for that guy, his site hasn’t been updated since then

That's an eye opening blog

[Stevo985]

3 hours ago, bickster said:

Yep it’s me that took them to an employment tribunal

its also me behind all the bad press they’ve received worldwide

I'm also behind the court case trying to force them to pay VAT

I'm behind every bad thing they’ve ever done

That's nowhere near what I was implying, but whatever 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Stevo985

[Chindie]

I'm not really surprised to see Uber not have it's licence renewed. Every story over the last 18 months about the company has been damning, from the boardroom down seemingly.

[Wainy316]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/left-wing-londoner-pretending-to-be-pleased-about-uber-ban-20170925136436

 

Quote

 

Left-wing Londoner pretending to be pleased about Uber ban

25-09-17

 

A GUARDIAN-reading Londoner is hailing the Uber ban as a victory for worker’s rights despite being secretly pissed off.

31-year-old Tom Booker outwardly rejoiced when the online cab firm lost its license, calling it “a major blow for the corrupt and oppressive gig economy”.

 

However he is secretly concerned that black cabs are incredibly expensive and is also a bit scared of going on the tube.

Booker said: “Uber is a heartless corporate entity that puts profit above workers’ rights, and threatens the livelihoods of ordinary salt-of-the-earth cabbies.

“That said, next month we’re supposed to be going for a birthday meal at a well-reviewed vegan restaurant in a far-flung London suburb with poor public transport links. I suppose we’ll have to get a cab which will cost fifty **** quid.

“Not that I mind of course, because black cab drivers have to learn all the street names which takes years of hard graft. Although somebody should probably tell them about sat nav which does make that sort of pointless.”

 

 

[blandy]

4 hours ago, Chindie said:

I'm not really surprised to see Uber not have it's licence renewed. Every story over the last 18 months about the company has been damning, from the boardroom down seemingly.

It's more than one company - this is good

Quote

On Friday 22 September, many Londoners who regularly use Uber received an email. “As you may have heard,” it began, “the Mayor and Transport for London have announced that they will not be renewing Uber’s licence to operate in our city when it expires on 30 September.”

“We are sure Londoners will be as astounded as we are by this decision,” the email continued, with a sense of disbelief. It then pointed readers towards an online petition against this attempt to “ban the app from the capital.”

Oddly, the email was sent by a company that TfL have taken no direct action against, and referred to an app that TfL have made no effort (and have no power) to ban.

When two become one

If that last statement sounds confusing, then this is understandable. It is because the consumer experience that is “Uber” is not actually the same as the companies that deliver it.

And “companies” is, ultimately, correct. Although most users of the system don’t realise it, over the course of requesting, completing and paying for their journey an Uber user in London actually interacts with two different companies – one Dutch, one British.

The first of those companies is Uber BV (UBV). Based in the Netherlands, this company is responsible for the actual Uber app. When a user wants to be picked up and picks a driver, they are interacting with UBV. It is UBV that request that driver be dispatched to the user’s location. It is also UBV who then collect any payment required.

At no point, however, does the user actually get into a car owned, managed or operated by UBV. That duty falls to the second, UK-based company – Uber London Ltd. (ULL). It is ULL who are responsible for all Uber vehicles – and their drivers – in London. Like Addison Lee or any of the other thousands of smaller operators that can be found on high streets throughout the capital, ULL are a minicab firm. They just happen to be one that no passenger has ever called directly – they respond exclusively to requests from UBV.

This setup may seem unwieldy, but it is deliberate. In part, it is what has allowed Uber to blur the boundary between being a ‘pre-booked’ service and ‘plying-for-hire’ (a difference we explored when we last looked at the London taxi trade back in 2015). It is also this setup that also allows Uber to pay what their critics say is less than their ‘fair share’ of tax – Uber pays no VAT and, last year, only paid £411,000 in Corporation Tax.

The average Londoner can be forgiven for not knowing all of the above (commentators in the media, less so). In the context of the journey, it is the experience that matters, not the technology or corporate structure that delivers it. In the context of understanding the current licensing situation, however, knowing the difference between the companies that make up that that Uber experience is important. Because without that, it is very easy for both Uber’s supporters and opponents to misunderstand what this dispute is actually about.

The raw facts

Uber London Ltd (ULL) are a minicab operator. This means they require a private hire operator’s licence. Licences last five years and ULL were last issued one in May 2012. They recently applied for its renewal.

ULL were granted a four-month extension to that licence earlier this year. This was because TfL, who are responsible for regulating taxi services in London, had a number of concerns that ULL might not meet the required standards of operational practice. These are rules that all private hire operators – from the smallest local cab firm to Addison Lee – are required to meet. Issuing a four-month extension rather than a five-year one was intended to provide the time necessary to investigate those issues further.

On Friday 22 September, TfL announced that they believe ULL does not meet the required standard in the following areas:

• Their approach to reporting serious criminal offences.
• Their approach to how medical certificates are obtained.
• Their approach to how Enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) checks are obtained.
• Their approach to explaining the use of Greyball in London – software that could be used to block regulatory bodies from gaining full access to the app and prevent officials from undertaking regulatory or law enforcement duties.

As a result, their application for a new licence has been denied.

It is important to note here: Uber users are not about to lose their ability to use the service. ULL have the right to appeal this decision and will remain in operation until that appeal has been heard. Similarly, if changes are made to their operational practices to meet those requirements to TfL’s satisfaction, then a new licence can be issued.

Put simply, this isn’t about the app.

So why does everyone think it is?

more on link

[lapal_fan]

I know it's bad and that, but if you look at any large company you'll find them all to be complete shits to either their staff, the customers or the tax man. 

This is just today's news and it'll all blow over in a week. 

I know I think it's wrong, but if I can get a cab for a £10 or £19, I'll go for the one which is £10 every time.  I'm sorry Mr cab driver, I'm sorry little kid in Indonesia, I'm sorry high street retailer, I'm sorry Mr Mechanic and every other person in a profession where big companies have **** over the little guy - but I don't earn the corn where I can be high and mighty about feeling guilty not to save myself money. 

I'd rather spend that saved money on my 1 holiday a year, my kid getting clothes or a little toy to make him happy, myself if I'm on a night out or on my wife or anything else which I deem more important.

My experience of Uber is quite positive, I'm sorry to say (I'm not, but I feel as though I'm meant to).  I've used Uber about 8 times in the last 2 years and on each occasion the drivers have seemed happy with the set up compared to their old jobs (taxi driving).  What other evidence do I need?  The staff seem happy (out of fear of bad ratings maybe) and the ride is cheaper - my consciousness doesn't go any deeper than that when all I'm looking to do is get from A to B. 

I also use Amazon, I've been to Starbucks a few times, I use out of town retailers and shop in Primark, rather than the little high street retailers - I'm a complete word removed, but oh well.  I'm not feeling guilty about putting a man into poverty, because I haven't.  And quite frankly, I resent the comments alluding to my limited purchasing power doing just that.