chrisp65 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Mic09 said: One person says service is poor. Other persons experience is good. No, that is not what happened. It was not an exercise in evaluating the overall service but rather pointing out that the 'pre-nationalisation' level of service still may occur even after privatisation. A black swan proves that not all swans are white. 2 hours ago, Mic09 said: Not that I have a problem with it - I just think opinions on privatise/make public should not be made on such examples And there is where we very much agree. Edited November 15, 2019 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2019 Just now, snowychap said: Its a shit anaolgy. Can you imagine if someone suggested nationalising all the printing presses? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 2 hours ago, PompeyVillan said: "It won't work" Isn't true, in my opinion. There are many examples of successful nationalised services, if you care to find them. South Korea is one the examples given by John McDonnell today regarding fibre services. He's saying it's nationalised and it's really good. Nationalisation of services needs to be done well, if it is, it can provide a better service to more people than a private enterprise could. I’m not entirely sure McDonnell is correct this article suggest it was as much down to the private sector the Korean government was vital to encouraging adoption of the internet in South Korea, she added that it was private companies that did a lot of the structural work. This is an excellent example of the kind of symbiotic relationship that businesses and the government have in South Korea. “In a country like Korea,” Butcher explained, “when you get a green light from your government you go ahead full-force and try to be successful in that field.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, bickster said: Its a shit anaolgy. Can you imagine if someone suggested nationalising all the printing presses? I'm not sure it was meant to be presented as a clear analogy to internet access (I think the line was about 'giving things away for free' and 'the consequences for taxpayers') but I think you've got it wrong in your post anyway. It's about providing access to information (i.e. being a library) rather than controlling the information that goes in to that repository (e.g. taking control of printing presses). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, snowychap said: Funnily enough people don't read in libraries as much as they do in private coffee shops on their capitalist kindles or on their evil iPhones. Just like in the broadband example, socialists want to please the nation with something that I am confident the private sector will improve by 2030. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2019 2 hours ago, peterms said: The same is true of food... - the answer to that wouldn't have to be taking distribution into public ownership. provision of rail infrastructure can only sensibly be done on a monopoly basis. broadband ... I imagine there are practical reasons for treating provision as akin to a natural monopoly. The argument for having provision socially controlled however seems largely about the poor outcomes we have seen compared to what other countries have achieved, the increasingly important part this service plays in people's lives, and the need for intervention to deliver better and more equitable outcomes. Exactly. I don't disagree with anything there. In terms of the argument for broadband being state controlled, people can make it and others can make equally valid arguments to not have it in state ownership, but to simply regulate/control it. I think we're in agreement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 Just now, snowychap said: It's about providing access to information (i.e. being a library) rather than controlling the information that goes in to that repository (e.g. taking control of printing presses). No single invention has given the public wider access to information than the internet or the computer. Both, very much private spheres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Funnily enough people don't read in libraries as much as they do in private coffee shops on their capitalist kindles or on their evil iPhones. Funnily enough, there are people who can't afford to 'read in coffee shops on their capitalist kindles' or their 'iPhones'. You really, really don't seem to understand the idea of universal access. Edited November 15, 2019 by snowychap shops not chops 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Mic09 said: No single invention has given the public wider access to information than the internet or the computer. Both, very much private spheres. Were they? Edit: To return to the actual point, it's about universal access/opportunity of access. It's about not allowing a market to leave people behind. Edited November 15, 2019 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Mic09 said: No single invention has given the public wider access to information than the internet or the computer. Both, very much private spheres. Your best yet. Absolutely **** spectacular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, snowychap said: Funnily enough, there are people who can't afford to 'read in coffee chops on their capitalist kindles' or their 'iPhones'. You really, really don't seem to understand the idea of universal access. Do you see reading as a basic human right? You might say access to information is, but please define that. And why is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 15, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted November 15, 2019 I have very few views on a nationalised broadband supply. Investment is surely required in infrastructure and reliable, good internet connection is a need that many communities do not have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 Just now, Mic09 said: Do you see reading as a basic human right? You might say access to information is, but please define that. And why is it? It's not about saying something is a 'basic human right' because that allows people to start an argument about what qualifies as a human right and so on and, even though there is some relevance of it when talking about government services being delivered mainly online (where rights might dictate a corresponding level of access), it is slightly irrelevant to the wider discussion because this isn't about what rights people can or do demand, it is about policy. A policy of giving and assuring universal access to the internet would seem to me to be a good, laudable and productive policy (given various constraints such as the government not controlling the output of that internet). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chindie said: I have very few views on a nationalised broadband supply. Investment is surely required in infrastructure and reliable, good internet connection is a need that many communities do not have. Nope EE have already opened up their 4G to home broadband customers in rural areas. Trials in Cumbria have produced stable speeds of up to 100mps. That happened in February 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 1 minute ago, snowychap said: A policy of giving and assuring universal access to the internet would seem to me to be a good, laudable and productive policy (given various constraints such as the government not controlling the output of that internet). So should the government provide free access to tools on which the internet will be accessed? Because if there are people who cannot afford a capitalist kindle or an iPad (and I'm not saying there aren't), how will they access their free internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, snowychap said: Funnily enough, there are people who can't afford to 'read in coffee shops on their capitalist kindles' or their 'iPhones'. You really, really don't seem to understand the idea of universal access. Believe it or not, most public libraries offer free internet access. That in itself is universal access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Believe it or not, most public libraries offer free internet access. That in itself is universal access. Coffee shops do too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 15, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted November 15, 2019 10 minutes ago, bickster said: Nope EE have already opened up their 4G to home broadband customers in rural areas. Trials in Cumbria have produced stable speeds of up to 100mps. That happened in February 2018 Not really comparable to a good wired connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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