CI Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Once upon a time 40% of the worlds trade passes through the port of Liverpool That's probably had a huge influence on the people and why they are what they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 18, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 18, 2012 Anyone who disagrees is uneducated or illinformed. I like the logic. I am happy to be illinformed, liverpool supporters have form, they werent totally blameless, thats all people are saying. Exactly. They are in denial. I remember seeing them down Aston late 70's smashing the pubs up, drunken mob, with no respect for anyone including women and small children. And that could apply to most teams of that era, including Villa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 18, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 18, 2012 Once upon a time 40% of the worlds trade passes through the port of Liverpool That's probably had a huge influence on the people and why they are what they are I have no idea what the purpose of this post is nor do I understand what it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knoppy1987 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I've got to agree with Bicks here. As a 'scouser', there seems to be some serious generalisations appearing within this thread. I accept opinion, but surely peoples dealings or experience can only be with the minority. I'm not sure what CI is babbling on about as per usual but I'm assuming that 'as per' some cage rattling is the aim of the game. I was brought up there, I have roamed the whole place, mixed with all types of people and I've never had any problem whatsoever. It reminds me of a case in Surrey (my new home) a few weeks ago were I was persecuted for my accent and told I should jog on back to my boarded up home. Whilst out for a curry, it is not very pleasant to be told such things. Fair enough have your opinion on Hillsborough by all means but justifying an instance due to the locational upbringing is in IMO bang out of order. At the end of the day, as football fans we have to accept that there are bad eggs in every crowd. I remember West Ham fans causing absolute chaos in Liverpool One's Nandos a few seasons back. It is always a minority. Being scouse has bugger all to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeevilla Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Ticketless fans and drunkenness are complete and utter red herrings, that happens at every single "Big" match. What doesn't happen at every game is the following:- The Police opening the huge gates that only usually open at the end of a match to let people out, allowing everyone in with or without a ticket, all at once causing a stampede. The Police were to blame here A ground that is so badly designed (at the leppings lane end at least) that it makes a crush in such circumstances almost inevitable. The Entrance at street level was above the terrace, back filling terraces are bad especially with no side vent to relieve pressure, allied to that three entrances funnel all the supporters into three rather dangerous channels of crushing, especially in the circumstances of the first point. The stadium design was inherantly unsafe at that end of the ground and for that Sheffield Council were to blame to an extent for granting safety certificates Holding the game at Hillsborough in the first place was idiotic and lax, purely from a geographical access point of view, for Liverpool fans to access the ground they had to drive to Stockport and down the snake pass (you may have heard of it, its even to this day a bloody dangerous road). You put thousands of extra people on this road and they will be late. There will be huge delays, lots of those people outside the ground, had tickets and were totally sober, they'd only just got there because the FA had chosen a frankly ridiculous venue. How could they have known you might ask? Well look in the record books, the previous year was the exact same fixture with the same teams and I went and all this nearly happened the year before. Anyone who went the previous year will have been aware of the danger, I was there the previous year and was acutely aware of it, we arrived late despite setting off with the intention of a couple of hours in a pub before the game, we only just got there in time. This was a ticking time bomb, could have been any big team from the north west in a big fixture, it just happened to be Liverpool. The FA should never have put the fixture there the next year, only idiots would have done that. The FA are culpable in this aspect. But what did we have in the papers the next day? Scousers piss on the dead (this never happened) and plenty of other vitriol based on complete and utter fabrication but because it was Liverpool, a city at the time run by Militant and the crook Hatton and therefore the target of much abuse from the tabloids AND the government alike and the general public lapped up this tabloid fever they always do and to this day it has clouded the judgement of many As blandy says, that could have been us or any other set of fans. Take the word Liverpool out of the story and the read the actual facts of the incident, many of you would have been appalled at what happened, instead of falling for the "it's the scousers own fault" line, especially those of you who weren't even old enough to remember it or the political climate at the time. I agree with this. I cannot believe some of the prejudiced, ignorant and frankly idiotic bile I've read in this thread, written by fellow Villa fans. Some of you need to educate yourselves about what happened that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 As blandy says, that could have been us or any other set of fans. Take the word Liverpool out of the story and the read the actual facts of the incident, many of you would have been appalled at what happened, instead of falling for the "it's the scousers own fault" line, especially those of you who weren't even old enough to remember it or the political climate at the time. i don't know too much about this event, and i'm sure that many people are to blame as well, but surely the Liverpool fans are ALSO to blame? Maybe others are more to blame, but are the Liverpool fans blameless as they seem to make out? Weird that problems at Heysel, Hillsborough, Athens 2007 all involve Liverpool fans. Is it coincidence or are their fans doing something different to other fans? Even 2012 league cup final or Liverpool visiting Villa Park the first season when away fans were moved (as mentioned by posters earlier in this thread) are all issues with Liverpool fans. Do other fans do similar things, or do people only take note when its Liverpool fans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Let's get this right, Liverpool fans are not to blame, but thoughs Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and barged in, have to take some responsibility for the tragic events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2012 Let's get this right, Liverpool fans are not to blame, but thoughs Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and barged in, have to take some responsibility for the tragic events. Why? It was rather commonplace to find touts outside all matches, it wasn't illegal back then either. Lots and lots of people went to matches hoping to get a ticket outside. Someone opens a big gate, to let you into the match you want to see, for free, tell me you aren't going to take advantage, especially when it appears to be officially endorsed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2012 I think everyone, I literally mean everyone accepts that the opening of the gates was wrong and caused the needless death of many many fans. I don't think anyone questions that or disputes that the police are culpable for that and the chaos that followed. Neither do I think anyone thinks that the treatment of the fans by the police and media following the events that day were anything other than disgusting. All that said, some people myself included think that the actions of the Liverpool fans that day had some barring on the events that unfolded. We aren't talking about one or two fans that turned up without tickets we are talking about hundreds, perhaps more. We aren't talking about people turning up hoping to get a ticket from a tout we are talking about a set of fans that had at the time a reputation for turning up on mass and trying to rush turnstyles and gain entry to games any way they could, I seem to recall some rather famous pictures of them climbing in the windows of Wembley one year. This is a practise that despite the events in Sheffield they have carried out at two subsequent CL finals. I'm old enough to remember that day, old enough to remember crying as I saw events unfold, old enough to remember the horrible horrible pictures. I'm old enough to think of a couple of scary moments on terraces when that could have been me/us most noteably away at West Ham only the year before. All that said I still think that the actions of some and its important to remember it was some not all, contributed to the events that day. I find it hard to comprehend how anyone can dispute that. Opening the gates was a mistake, one of several and it was compounded by more mistakes that followed and even worse they tried to lie about it. It was though a mistake that was made while trying to deal with a crush outside the ground which was caused by fans trying to gain entry to the ground without tickets. The Police made the mistakes that led to the tragic deaths however the actions of some of the fans that day in my opinion contributed to the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMFy Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Let's get this right, Liverpool fans are not to blame, but thoughs Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and barged in, have to take some responsibility for the tragic events. Why? It was rather commonplace to find touts outside all matches, it wasn't illegal back then either. Lots and lots of people went to matches hoping to get a ticket outside. Someone opens a big gate, to let you into the match you want to see, for free, tell me you aren't going to take advantage, especially when it appears to be officially endorsed I couldn't think of a theory, outside of creationism, that I could subscribe to less than this. Official endorsement of a point of entry to the ground? I know a lot of people blame the police entirely for the events of that day, but if those police were not trying to stop people flooding through those gates on that fateful day, a fruitless protest which we can only assume was completely ignored by the ticketless fans involved, I would eat my own cock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Let's get this right, Liverpool fans are not to blame, but thoughs Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and barged in, have to take some responsibility for the tragic events. Absolutely. To say they don't deserve any blame at all is quite ridiculous. I can understand why the view on Liverpool fans is as bad as it is. People stealing kids tickets for the Champions League Final in Athens. Others fighting each other over tickets. **** idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theunderstudy Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I think what people mean is whilst the majority of the blame should be on the police, the ground and other variables, to completely absolve Liverpool of any blame is quite frankly ridiculous. Equally, to entirely blame Liverpool fans, or mostly blame them, well that's completely ludicrous and wrong as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2012 I think what people mean is whilst the majority of the blame should be on the police, the ground and other variables, to completely absolve Liverpool of any blame is quite frankly ridiculous. Equally, to entirely blame Liverpool fans, or mostly blame them, well that's completely ludicrous and wrong as well. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 You know, I agree with what a lot of the people are saying on here, paticularly Blandy and Bicks. I just have one niggling question... Could this have happened to any other set of fans? I know what you mean when you say this...but...why is it always Liverpool fans? In my opinion, they are scum, always have been and always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 21, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2012 Could this have happened to any other set of fans? I know what you mean when you say this...but...why is it always Liverpool fans?... In my view, yes. I dunno if you ever went to Hillsboroughwhen it was terracing at that end, but the entrances were basically a relatively small number of turnstiles next to two large blue gates. Away fans were directed to this partially enclosed area outside the ground - I think there was a kind of wall at one side, from memory, meaning two sides were enclosed - a natural funnel, routing people to the turnstile entrances. WIth a lot of people to get in to the terracing and the seats above in a short time, due to traffic delays, pressure inevitably builds up, and fans keen not to miss the start, having been delayed in traffic would all be arriving at the same time. The obvious thing to do would be for the Police to see the huge build up of people and relay the message to the control centre to get kick off delayed by 15 minutes, announce it over the tannoy and then everyone can relax a bit. Instead, they opened the big blue gates. WHen you go in through the turnstiles or gates, and when the gates were opened all the people being pressured from behind would have been pushed through the gates by the mass of people, you get funnelled down a tunnel straight ahead, you could theoretically go left and along and then down a different tunnel, but pressure of people behind, nothing in front and unfamiliarity with the layout would lead to everyone going down the one narrow tunnel. The terracing was wide and shallow and totally penned in blocks, so everyone would have nowhere to go in the pen directly in front of the tunnel, while the pens to the side would have been much less full. This pressure in the pen right ahead of the tunnel right ahead of the gates is what killed people. It killed children, it killed people who got in nice and early. Lives ended. Over. Because the police instead of delaying the game, instead of using the tannoy, treated the fans as hooligans. They tried to stop people being squashed from climbing over the pitchside fences to escape. They opened the gates and just let everyone in. All the stuff about ticketless fans - maybe there were some, but there's no evidence of systematic large numbers of fans being there without tickets. Some hoping to buy from touts, sure, most likely. Some hoping to blag it, somehow. Like every other big club, or like England or Scotland at World cups - loads go without tickets, but with the vain hope that they will stumble across something and get lucky - someone with a spare who's mate was ill on the day of the game or whatever. As people have said, the Police lied about what they did. They tried to destroy the evidence, they changed their statements after the event, they used the media, they did all they could to avert the blame onto the people who died, they made up stories about "pickpocketing the dead" and worse. All utterly untrue, vile and cowardly. The climate at the time of going to football was of (whatever club) fans being treated as a menace, not as citizens, but as animals. Not people the Police serve, but as a problem to be dealt with by intimidation, aggression, control, and loathing. The Police were once "institutionally racist", they were also once similarly minded towards football fans. No doubt as with Villa, some Liverpool fans are idiotic when they go to games, drink too much, lack respect and decency towards their fellow fans, the police, stewards, property or whatever. But deal with people as individuals - don't treat everyone of us as scum. We're not. Those people who died, died because of the attitude, unprofessionalism, unpreparedness, and poor decision making by the police, who then lied about it and tried to cover it up. The people whose relatives died deserve to have the matter closed. Not because people on messageboards say "move on" or "get over it" or "Liverpool fans are guilty as well, understand that", but because their sons, daughters, husbands, fathers brothers and sisters died as a result of what is known to be Police incompetence (and worse) and yet no-one has ever been disciplined, tried, fired, or anything else for their actions. The guilty have got away, and the families have got no closure. It's wrong, and it really could, on a different day, have been us. Liverpool fans, the good ones, of which there are many, the so -so and the numpties are the same as us. They just live somewhere else (London and Scandinavia mostly!). People blaming "scousers" are in my view willfully or through sheer ignorance missing the point by an absolute mile. Like I said before, when an Official enquiry run by an establishment judge, finds the Police responsible and the finds no evidence of fan "fault" for the disaster, at a time when society was horribly biased already against football fans like us, you know the case should be closed. If only it could be and the people affected could get some peace and some justice. People going on about Liverpool fans collectively having a ship on their shoulder about it - Good on the fellow fans at Liverpool, the friends of the families, the people who just share a sense of community through their common support for LFC for not letting 96 deaths be brushed under the carpet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 22, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 22, 2012 Oh and apart from the Snake Pass route to Hillsborough which I've already mentioned the only other route is the M62 which on that particular day had unannounced, unscheduled roadworks that caused massive delays which is why lots of people arrived late at the ground, because they either got caught in it or found out about it and used the Snake Pass route and got caught up there instead. that mass of people outside the ground wasn't caused by hordes of ticketless fans it got caused by fans arriving late because of circumstances beyond their control - roadworks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I cannot believe some of the prejudiced, ignorant and frankly idiotic bile I've read in this thread, written by fellow Villa fans. # just because it doesnt match your opinion it doesnt mean they are idiots :? a majority of people are not syaing the police are to blame they are saying some of the liverpool fans have to accept their role in the incident too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 just because it doesnt match your opinion it doesnt mean they are idiots :? Where's this daft idea come from that all opinions are equally valid? Everyone has the right to an opinion, but that doesn't mean that some opinions aren't completely and utterly wrong. Not necessarily saying that this applies to either viewpoint in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The only way the Liverpool fans contributed to the tragic events that day were simply by being there, and by behaving as 99% of fans of all clubs do. In that way then, it could have happened to any team, and I went to enough games around then to have seen times when it could and nearly did do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeevilla Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 just because it doesnt match your opinion it doesnt mean they are idiots :? Some opinions are plain wrong. Some opinions are idiotic, especially when they fly in the face of all the actual available evidence and appear to be based on nothing more than blind prejudice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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