The Hillsborough inquest

[PompeyVillan]

It's a sorry story. It really is.

I'm not sure what justice looks like for the Hillsborough victims. I think the truth is justice in part, and in exposing the corruption the Justice campaigners have done the public a duty.

I think the reasons for Hillsborough are so far reaching that you can never pin down all responsible and bring them to justice and I suspect some of the victim's families will never feel full closure because of this.

[blandy]

5 hours ago, Genie said:

all I'm saying is that cases collapse all the time and if that were to be the situation here then it will be pretty painful for the families to see someone charged and them walking 'free'.

Yes. it happened all ready, didn't it (kind of) with Duckenfield. Don't think it was a criminal trial, from memory, but a misconduct type charge. As you guys have implied though, this time there's now a lot more evidence of wrongdoing etc. out in the open. They pretty much have to charge those responsible for that wrong-doing.

[VillaChris]

Word of praise for Andy Burnham btw....

The families were getting nowhere in their inquiry pleas when Burnham spoke at Anfield on the 20th anniversary. As soon as he started speaking 40k fans chanted "Justice for the 96" which visibly moved on and he promised there and then to get an inquiry for them.

Part of why I was saying he should've been Labour leader over the summer, I don't care whether his views move Labour to the left, right or centre, just here was the rare case of an MP helping people and making their lives a little better.

Edited April 27, 2016 by VillaChris

[Woodytom]

8 hours ago, snowychap said:

The bits where you claimed that his split second decision averted some other tragedy, rather ignoring all of the circumstances that LondonLax laid out for you.

Sorry but that's just bollocks.

First of all you've made it sound like I've made dukinfield to be some sort of hero for stopping a tragedy outside. No. That's not what I feel at all. His mistakes contributed massively to any tragedy that occurred.

What I debated is this nonsense that opening the gate was such a clear cut decision that without hindsight he shouldn't have made.

He's got a crush outside the stadium where he's informed that people are going to die if the gates not opened. Has, in 27 years, anybody suggested an alternative to opening the gate in order to deal with the crush outside?

Maybe they could have politely asked the Liverpool fans to turn around and leave in an orderly fashion. If only eh....

He opens the gate a tragedy occurred. He leaves the gate locked, the likelihood is, a tragedy would have occurred. Probably not on the same level perhaps but there certainly would have been casualties.

[Woodytom]

9 hours ago, dAVe80 said:

This isn't the whole of the issue though is it? Mistakes are made in every day life. Some small, some massive. To an extent you can feel symathy for those who make a genuine mistake, that causes the loss of life. If culpability was admitted at the time of the incident, then maybe Dukinfield would now just be living out the rest of his life in peace (no doubt on a cushy Police pension). He didn’t though, he lied. He and his colleagues cobbled together a heinous tale of drunken football fans, and put the blame solely at feet of the poor souls who perished, and were injured, and the who fought in vein to try and save them. They let the world believe it for 27 years. In my view that supersedes any issues about the state of health and safety.

Of course not. And youre absolutely right. The police got it wrong that day and they were wrong to lie.

However, and again this goes back to era, and how times are very different now.

If you're a police officer in 1989 and a higher rank informs you to do something. You do it. Or you're looking for another job.

Now that doesn't excuse individual  people for lying one bit and it certainly doesn't excuse an organisation for lying...... but...... individually you can see how easily police officers perhaps including David dukinfield, we're influenced to lie.

[snowychap]

12 minutes ago, Woodytom said:

Sorry but that's just bollocks.

It's not 'just bollocks' and the rest of your post goes on to explain why it is not 'just bollocks' especially puerile crap like the following:

12 minutes ago, Woodytom said:

Maybe they could have politely asked the Liverpool fans to turn around and leave in an orderly fashion. If only eh....

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by snowychap

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, Woodytom said:

If you're a police officer in 1989 and a higher rank informs you to do something. You do it. Or you're looking for another job.

Now that doesn't excuse individual  people for lying one bit and it certainly doesn't excuse an organisation for lying...... but...... individually you can see how easily police officers perhaps including David dukinfield, were influenced to lie.

"How easily police officers were persuaded to lie"

Just thinking about that for a moment. Police, whose job was and is to truthfully, honestly and accurately gather and report evidence. Who promise to do so, to uphold the law and all the rest of it.

If you have a culture of dishonesty in the Police, where people can be easily persuaded to falsify evidence... It's completely terrible and wrong.

You're clearly correct, there were Police who lied. There were others higher up who falsified evidence (changed statements written by others) hid vide evidence and did all kinds of corrupt things. So yes SYP rotten to the core, and from the top down. With exceptions. Some officers did resist, report and complain about what was being done.

There's no excuse at all. None.

[blandy]

18 minutes ago, Woodytom said:

Has, in 27 years, anybody suggested an alternative to opening the gate in order to deal with the crush outside?

Yes, yes, yes. Announce on the PA the game is delayed by half an hour or until everyone is safely inside. Get on the radio to the police at the gate - tell them to tell the fans the game is delayed (police on horses had loudspeakers). Sound off Sirens. All kinds of actions. Open the gates inside the ground that gave access to the pitch, too - the pens were already overcrowded. The list of "should have done's" is massive.

[ml1dch]

18 minutes ago, Woodytom said:

Sorry but that's just bollocks.

First of all you've made it sound like I've made dukinfield to be some sort of hero for stopping a tragedy outside. No. That's not what I feel at all. His mistakes contributed massively to any tragedy that occurred.

What I debated is this nonsense that opening the gate was such a clear cut decision that without hindsight he shouldn't have made.

He's got a crush outside the stadium where he's informed that people are going to die if the gates not opened. Has, in 27 years, anybody suggested an alternative to opening the gate in order to deal with the crush outside?

Maybe they could have politely asked the Liverpool fans to turn around and leave in an orderly fashion. If only eh....

He opens the gate a tragedy occurred. He leaves the gate locked, the likelihood is, a tragedy would have occurred. Probably not on the same level perhaps but there certainly would have been casualties.

It's been posted so many times that I can only assume that you're deliberately ignoring it, but just in case you've glossed over it:

 

Quote

 

Duckenfield turned up to command the semi-final, he admitted, knowing very little about Hillsborough’s safety history: about the crushes at the 1981 and 1988 semi-finals, or that the approach to the Leppings Lane end was a “natural geographical bottleneck” to which Mole had carefully managed supporters’ entry.

Duckenfield admitted he had not familiarised himself in any detail with the ground’s layout or capacities of its different sections. He did not know the seven turnstiles, through which 10,100 Liverpool supporters with standing tickets had to be funnelled to gain access to the Leppings Lane terrace, opened opposite a large tunnel leading straight to the central pens, three and four. He did not even know that the police were responsible for monitoring overcrowding, nor that the police had a tactic, named after a superintendent, John Freeman, of closing the tunnel when the central pens were full, and directing supporters to the sides. He admitted his focus before the match had been on dealing with misbehaviour, and he had not considered the need to protect people from overcrowding or crushing."

 

 

So for the umpteenth time, he wasn't a poor victim of chance put into an impossible position - he was a person with a huge amount of responsibility who either through neglect, laziness or incompetence put himself in a position where he had to then make an unfortunate decision. 

 

Edit - if I decide to have eight pints, drive home and through my own bad judgement have the choice between ploughing into a line of schoolchildren on one side of the road or a line of schoolchildren on the other side, the unenviable choice that I've given myself is still very much my own fault and nobody else's.

Edited April 27, 2016 by ml1dch
context

[Woodytom]

19 minutes ago, blandy said:

"How easily police officers were persuaded to lie"

Just thinking about that for a moment. Police, whose job was and is to truthfully, honestly and accurately gather and report evidence. Who promise to do so, to uphold the law and all the rest of it.

If you have a culture of dishonesty in the Police, where people can be easily persuaded to falsify evidence... It's completely terrible and wrong.

You're clearly correct, there were Police who lied. There were others higher up who falsified evidence (changed statements written by others) hid vide evidence and did all kinds of corrupt things. So yes SYP rotten to the core, and from the top down. With exceptions. Some officers did resist, report and complain about what was being done.

There's no excuse at all. None.

I never said there was an excuse.

And yes I totally agree. I was informed to lie on my application form in order to be selected for the police (not south yorkshire fwiw. I'm not a police officer btw. 

Of course it's corrupt, with exceptions. What massive organisation isn't?

[Woodytom]

19 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

It's been posted so many times that I can only assume that you're deliberately ignoring it, but just in case you've glossed over it:

 

 

So for the umpteenth time, he wasn't a poor victim of chance put into an impossible position - he was a person with a huge amount of responsibility who either through neglect, laziness or incompetence put himself in a position where he had to then make an unfortunate decision. 

 

Edit - if I decide to have eight pints, drive home and through my own bad judgement have the choice between ploughing into a line of schoolchildren on one side of the road or a line of schoolchildren on the other side, the unenviable choice that I've given myself is still very much my own fault and nobody else's.

I have not ignored it. I don't disagree with it. Nowhere have I indicated that David dukinfield didn't make catastrophic mistakes.

[Woodytom]

23 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yes, yes, yes. Announce on the PA the game is delayed by half an hour or until everyone is safely inside. Get on the radio to the police at the gate - tell them to tell the fans the game is delayed (police on horses had loudspeakers). Sound off Sirens. All kinds of actions. Open the gates inside the ground that gave access to the pitch, too - the pens were already overcrowded. The list of "should have done's" is massive.

And the crush outside blandy - you know where it's said that people are going to die - how does that help that?

All those should haves do is avoid the crush inside the ground?

How does delaying the match avoid the crush that's already occurring?

Sirens - wouldn't that just cause more panic potentially?

[Woodytom]

31 minutes ago, snowychap said:

It's not 'just bollocks' and the rest of your post goes on to explain why it is not 'just bollocks' especially puerile crap like the following:

 

Well I'm waiting for a reasonable response to how to avoid the crush that is already occurring outside the ground without opening the gate?

The crush is happening. You have thousands of Liverpool fans who are only going one way. 

[snowychap]

21 minutes ago, Woodytom said:

Well I'm waiting for a reasonable response to how to avoid the crush that is already occurring outside the ground without opening the gate?

In keeping with your silly hypothetical: if I wanted to get to Dublin, I wouldn't start from here.

 

But, in the hopes that you actually bother to read and take in to account some of the evidence given to the Inquest and the Panel and repeatedly posted by a number of posters in this thread, from ml1dch's post above:

Quote

He [Duckenfield] did not even know that the police were responsible for monitoring overcrowding, nor that the police had a tactic, named after a superintendent, John Freeman, of closing the tunnel when the central pens were full, and directing supporters to the sides.

and from this BBC article:

Quote

As Gate C was opened, most of the 2,000 fans headed straight down a tunnel towards the full central pens, creating the fatal crush. However, if the tunnel had been closed, fans would have been diverted towards the relatively emptier side pens, the inquests were told. This was a recognised method of restricting access to the central pens and had previously been used during the 1988 FA Cup semi-final.

Mr Duckenfield agreed his failure to close the tunnel "was the direct cause of the deaths of 96 people". The jury heard he had at least three minutes to "consider the consequences" of opening the gates. However, Mr Duckenfield admitted he did not think about closing the tunnel but "froze" because of the pressure he was under. In mitigation, he said he was working from a "deficient" set of police orders, which made no reference to closing the tunnel.

Lord Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, considered it "unfortunate" the 1988 closure "seems to have been unknown to the senior officers on duty at the time". However, statements seen by HIP suggested that both Ch Supt Duckenfield and his predecessor, Ch Supt Brian Mole, were aware that the tunnel could be used to prevent overcrowding.

And from that same article regarding the overcrowding that was happening outside:

Quote

In the half-hour before kick off, the approach to the Leppings Lane end quickly became congested. The 10,100 fans with standing tickets were expected to enter the ground through just seven turnstiles and by 14.30, fewer than half were inside. As more and more fans arrived, the crush at the front of the queue became worse - leading to the fateful decision to open the gates. The inquests heard this was the result of a number of failings.

Firstly, there was no police cordon on the approaches to the stadium to ensure fans formed "orderly queues or only those with tickets came near the ground". At the previous year's FA Cup semi final at the stadium, police cordons were in place regulating the entry of supporters. However, there were 172 fewer officers on duty on the day of the disaster. The police match commander, Ch Supt David Duckenfield, admitted in evidence that he should have given "serious consideration to cordons".

Police had also closed some turnstiles to keep Liverpool and Nottingham Forest fans apart. This decision - and the design of the approach to the stand - combined to make the congestion worse. The number of fans passing through each turnstile was three times higher than at other turnstiles in the stadium, an HSE investigation found in 1990. The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP), set up to oversee the release of documents relating to the disaster, concluded there was "clear evidence in the build-up to the match, both inside and outside the stadium, that turnstiles serving the Leppings Lane terrace could not process the required number of fans in time for the kick-off."

The area outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles was described as a "death trap" by former South Yorkshire Police inspector Gordon Sykes. He told the inquest the layout of the turnstiles had previously caused problems and the access route outside the ground meant fans would get "trapped" in corners or against fences and gates. "Up to 1989, I'm going to put it bluntly - we got away with it," he said. Criticism of the turnstiles was rejected by Sheffield Wednesday club secretary Graham Mackrell who said the number of turnstiles for the Leppings Lane terrace had proved "satisfactory" at previous games.

Inside the ground, "there was no means of counting" the number of fans entering individual pens. This made it harder to prevent certain pens inside the standing areas becoming too congested.

The inquest jury blamed police failures before and on the day of the tragedy. It noted that a road closure in the area had exacerbated the situation. No contingency plans were made for the sudden arrival of a large number of fans and attempts to close the stadium's perimeter gates, before fans reached the turnstiles, were made too late.

As the congestion grew worse near the turnstiles and mounted officers struggled to keep control, a radio request was made for reinforcements at 14.44. Some 2,000 Liverpool supporters were still outside and Ch Supt Duckenfield gave the fateful order to "open the gates", letting fans into the ground.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by snowychap

[maqroll]

Duckenfield is a villain, and probably the biggest scapegoat involved, and deservedly so. It's amazing he's not been put behind bars for even a token term. But his personal negligence exposed other flaws in the public safety apparatus in Sheffield, and in how the game was policed in general. I think standing areas should be brought back and could be. The issue was so simple, too many people got in the ground. 

[foreveryoung]

4 minutes ago, maqroll said:

Duckenfield is a villain, and probably the biggest scapegoat involved, and deservedly so. It's amazing he's not been put behind bars for even a token term. But his personal negligence exposed other flaws in the public safety apparatus in Sheffield, and in how the game was policed in general. I think standing areas should be brought back and could be. The issue was so simple, too many people got in the ground. 

if it was this simple, how many didn't have tickets, an forced there way in?

[Woodytom]

16 minutes ago, snowychap said:

In keeping with your silly hypothetical: if I wanted to get to Dublin, I wouldn't start from here.

 

But, in the hopes that you actually bother to read and take in to account some of the evidence given to the Inquest and the Panel and repeatedly posted by a number of posters in this thread, from ml1dch's post above:

and from this BBC article:

And from that same article regarding the overcrowding that was happening outside:

 

 

I've read it. I'm not disputing any of it. I'm not sure why people keep posting it?

All of that is monstrous mistakes from the police that led to the overcrowding. 

However, you are now at the stage where the mistakes have happened and the overcrowding has occurred..... so he HAS to open the gate to relieve the pressure outside. 

Not once have I took any blame away from SYP just highlighted how it's very difficult to look at the incident in a balanced view. I know people who were there, very well in fact and it's just not as clear cut as the gate should never have been opened etc.

And that's all I suggested.

That crush was happening either way. Through poor planning and too many fans - the hillsborough disaster unfortunately was a disaster that was going to happen sooner or later. Whether it be that day or at another ground.

It was a dreadful day. Truly horrific but if it wasn't then, it would have been another time - football just wasn't a safe day out back then. 

[maqroll]

3 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

if it was this simple, how many didn't have tickets, an forced there way in?

Thats what I'm saying, those people without tickets should not have made it inside the ground. Total failure of basic crowd control measures.

[Woodytom]

I don't know about anyone else, but if I don't have a ticket, I don't go.

Basic human nature.

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, maqroll said:

Thats what I'm saying, those people without tickets should not have made it inside the ground. Total failure of basic crowd control measures.

Hmmm, could be opening a can of worms here chap.

So it takes the police to stop fans getting in the ground without a ticket, this is true, an a failing by SYP  But it doesn't take away the fact it's a criminal offence by the fans, trying to force there way in.