Paul Lambert

[Mantis]

 

 

 

 

Just one last point McLeish won a total of 7 games, only 4 wins at VP. Lambert won 6 at VP last year but it is constantly heralded as the worst home form of the century, yes losses wise it is, but points wise it isn't.

 

 

This is why I've often said that those kind of records are mostly meaningless - they just don't tell you the full story.

 

The full story being that both of them have been terrible for Aston Villa

 

That's not a fact or a statistic, it's just an opinion.

 

Anyway, I wasn't even trying to defend Lambert's home record.

 

An opinion backed up by statistics

 

 

Statistics don't tell the fully story. Statistics alone aren't a good judge of manager.

[The_Lions_Roar]

Strange that those that said he's definatoey going to be sacked straight after the season ends have gone quiet.

[Papillon]

McLeish is and always was a very poor manager. No plan or strategy, just lucky to have actually made money from the game we all love.

 

Lambert has been a very poor manager up until now, but I won't write him off completely. He seems pretty lost in this job, no doubt about that, but there might be something there in the end. Numerous managers have taken smaller clubs up from League 1 and the Championship, but that it nothing compared to staying in the Premier League for 15-20 years. I highly doubt he will get a job at the top if he is sacked by Villa, so this is make or break.

 

McLeish got the job at Nottingham Forest and was sacked after two months, and was never hired again. Good luck finding a job in the Premier League, mate.

[AshVilla]

What because he keeps his job by default?

 

Him being sacked was always based on a new owner coming in we don't have one yet so he hasn't had the bullet

 

Don't worry he will be handed his p45 as soon as one arrives, for the good of the club i hope he gets results however i can see no other scenario than him being sacked before Christmas his limited tactics and limited football will be exposed yet again

[The_Lions_Roar]

Without investment he'd be mad to stay.

[TrentVilla]

Just out of interest, can you name the *many* other clubs who have tried to get high wage earners to leave by dropping them from the squad and making them train with the under 21s?

Ok, just off the top of my head.

Chelsea - Anelka, Alex, Malouda and Ferreira were all subjected to this.

Man City - Bellamy, Roque Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Tevex

Everton - Pistone, Van Der Meyde

Fulham - Zamora

Newcastle - Ben Arfa

It actually happens quite a lot, only its unusual for there to be some many at one club at one time but then not many clubs get themselves in the mess we did and then try and sort it out quite so quickly.

Well, the question wasn't to you but, since you've answered, i checked one of the claims.

Zamora was never banished from the Fulham first team squad and made to train with their under-21s as far as I can recall. He played pretty regularly for their first team - apart from a spell between September 2010 and January 2011 when he broke his leg - until he was transferred to QPR in January 2012 for £6m (more than Fulham paid for him). That strikes me as an example of a club handling the exit of one of their aging players well.

So your list lost a bit of credibility for me on first look.

Just glancing at a couple of other names, I don't think Bellamy was ever made to train with the Man C under-21s, was he? Nor was Adebayor? And Van der Meyde was excluded from the Everton first team after being hospitalised for alcohol abuse and failing to turn up for training so that looks more like a disciplinary action.

I wasn't aware you were having a private conversation.

As for Zamora it was off the top of my head as I said, if it is incorrect on him then so be it.

I don't really think you can dismiss the fact that making players train with under 21's isn't a widely used tactic simply because that may have been incorrect. However on that basis your reply lost a bit of credibility seeing as you are wrong about Bellamy.

I'm pretty sure the rest are correct but it was less about individual instances and more about the general concept which isn't as unusual as you would like to make out.

[Big_John_10]

Strange that those that said he's definatoey going to be sacked straight after the season ends have gone quiet.

I thought news of knew owners would come out straight away. I think he'll be gone once new owners come in but it's becoming more of a worry that we'll be stuck with him

[The_Lions_Roar]

Strange that those that said he's definatoey going to be sacked straight after the season ends have gone quiet.

I thought news of knew owners would come out straight away. I think he'll be gone once new owners come in but it's becoming more of a worry that we'll be stuck with him

It would be far more of a worry if we were without a manager and no new owners. Who would want this job under randy?

[samjp26]

 

 

Strange that those that said he's definatoey going to be sacked straight after the season ends have gone quiet.

I thought news of knew owners would come out straight away. I think he'll be gone once new owners come in but it's becoming more of a worry that we'll be stuck with him

It would be far more of a worry if we were without a manager and no new owners. Who would want this job under randy?

 

 

I don't think he cares as he hates Lambert and that's pretty much the end of it.

 

Of course everybody is entitled to their opinion, but sometimes you have to look at things from a different perspective. As you say, who would want this job? Whoever would want it, what sort of incredible job would they be able to do now? Better yet, what would we do with no manager at all? Would that motivate the players? 

 

Personally, as I have said several times since the end of the season, I believe we need a different manager to lead the club forward. However, the club isn't going to be going anywhere but backwards for as long as Randy remains here, so I'd rather stick with Lambert than risk being stuck with somebody worse or even worse than that, nobody at all.

Edited May 21, 2014 by samjp26

[Hanky]

Strange that those that said he's definatoey going to be sacked straight after the season ends have gone quiet.

I thought news of knew owners would come out straight away. I think he'll be gone once new owners come in but it's becoming more of a worry that we'll be stuck with him

It would be far more of a worry if we were without a manager and no new owners. Who would want this job under randy?

I don't think he cares as he hates Lambert and that's pretty much the end of it.

Of course everybody is entitled to their opinion, but sometimes you have to look at things from a different perspective. As you say, who would want this job? Whoever would want it, what sort of incredible job would they be able to do now? Better yet, what would we do with no manager at all? Would that motivate the players?

Personally, as I have said several times since the end of the season, I believe we need a different manager to lead the club forward. However, the club isn't going to be going anywhere but backwards for as long as Randy remains here, so I'd rather stick with Lambert than risk being stuck with somebody worse or even worse than that, nobody at all.

I don't think the players are motivated under Lambert. That run of games at the end of the season was appalling. I agree that it would be difficult to see anybody come here at the minute, I just hope a takeover comes sooner rather than later.

[TRO]

 

 

Strange that those that said he's definatoey going to be sacked straight after the season ends have gone quiet.

I thought news of knew owners would come out straight away. I think he'll be gone once new owners come in but it's becoming more of a worry that we'll be stuck with him

It would be far more of a worry if we were without a manager and no new owners. Who would want this job under randy?

 

 

well at the moment you are quite right, but i guess some of our managers of the past would have been highly delighted with his early days.....and maybe with a few of them the dark days we are now in would never have arrived.

[shaggy]

 

 

Since those results were similar to Mcleish would you still state the same if circumstances were the same under Mcleish? 

 

 

Surely this McLeish v Lambert comparison has been done to death already? 

 

But no, I wouldn't have the same opinion if Mcleish were still in charge and there are various reasons why and none have anything to do with petty dislikes for Small Heath.

 

To very quickly recap, McLeish lavished money in either wages or transfer fee's on the likes of £9.5m on N'Zogbia and the stupid wages of Given (that isn't hindsight, I said it was stupid at the time).

 

He also inherited a far better squad than Lambert inherited, there is comparison between the relative strengths of the two.

 

There is also little comparison between the way the two managed the team, McLeish signed short term, expensive dross like Hutton not with the clubs long term health in mind but due to a short term desire to cling to a job I'm sure he could hardly believe he landed having just been relegated, again.

 

There is also little to be compared in their managerial records prior to arriving at B6, Lambert turned a club in terminal decline around leading them to successive promotions. McLeish well, he managed to finish 3rd in Scotland with Rangers and everyone knows the rest, a fluke cup win and finishing 9th with Bruce's team shouldn't fool anyone.

 

Trying to draw comparisons between the results of Lambert and McLeish is in my view more than a little daft given the gulf in the difference of circumstances and is normally only done by those who wish to convince people they are right in their condemnation of Lambert. It really has very little to do with proper analysis or comparison.

 

The biggest reason though for a difference for me is one manager set up with 6 defenders at home and Heskey in midfield against Spurs while the other has led us to wins at Anfield, Arsenal and at home to Chelsea. I've intentionally discounted the Man City game as that was a freak.

 

We have twice gone up to Anfield under Lambert and played them off the park, that to me suggests whatever errors he has made and whatever shortcomings he might have he his a better manager than McLeish by some considerable distance. 

 

But that is just my view, I don't expect everyone to agree especially those who want to see the back of Lambert, that is after all your right as a supporter to hold whatever view you want. Just don't draw comparison between the results of McLeish and Lambert and expect me to take it seriously.

 

 

Circumstances of every manager coming to a new club are going to be different simply because neither the manager or the circumstances can be cloned.

 

However it's certainly not daft to try to analyse and compare the performance of both managers while at the same club especially when both managers were working under a limited budget.

 

Under Lambert we finished with 41pts and 38pts with a final league placement of 15th. Under McLeish we finished with 38pts and a league placement of 16th. We could get into more stats but those are the most important stats and without doubt they show parity.

 

You rightly mention that Lambert has achieved some excellent results while beating Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea but under McLeish we also beat a very good Chelsea team and drawing more games 17 to Lambert's 11.

 

You also mention McLeish achieving a fluke cup win, yet under Lambert we weren't too far away doing the same thing losing against Bradford in the semi.

 

You further state that McLeish finished ninth with Bruce's team yet didn't Lambert finish mid table with Norwich if we're going to take the debate outside of performances with Villa.

 

Maybe those who still support and defend Lambert have lost sight of the most important factor of all in that league placement and points are the bottom line as a barometer of performance level. How many times have we heard the old cliche the table never lies and certainly if that is the case then your statement better manager than McLeish by some considerable distance has very little substance at all. 

[Mantis]

 

 

 

Strange that those that said he's definatoey going to be sacked straight after the season ends have gone quiet.

I thought news of knew owners would come out straight away. I think he'll be gone once new owners come in but it's becoming more of a worry that we'll be stuck with him

It would be far more of a worry if we were without a manager and no new owners. Who would want this job under randy?

 

 

I don't think he cares as he hates Lambert and that's pretty much the end of it.

 

Of course everybody is entitled to their opinion, but sometimes you have to look at things from a different perspective. As you say, who would want this job? Whoever would want it, what sort of incredible job would they be able to do now? Better yet, what would we do with no manager at all? Would that motivate the players? 

 

Personally, as I have said several times since the end of the season, I believe we need a different manager to lead the club forward. However, the club isn't going to be going anywhere but backwards for as long as Randy remains here, so I'd rather stick with Lambert than risk being stuck with somebody worse or even worse than that, nobody at all.

 

Exactly. And despite how much shit he gets it's important to remember that Lambert was seen as a very good manager indeed prior to coming here and he's got a record better than many managers. If this can happen under a manager with his reputation and past then what makes people think similar won't happen under a manager with a worse record? I have no doubt in my mind that if there's no sale and this uncertainty remains then we definitely won't be able to get a manager with same kind of pedigree that Lambert had this time 2 years ago. We'd be really scraping the barrel for managers.

[TRO]

 

 

 

 

Strange that those that said he's definatoey going to be sacked straight after the season ends have gone quiet.

I thought news of knew owners would come out straight away. I think he'll be gone once new owners come in but it's becoming more of a worry that we'll be stuck with him

It would be far more of a worry if we were without a manager and no new owners. Who would want this job under randy?

 

 

I don't think he cares as he hates Lambert and that's pretty much the end of it.

 

Of course everybody is entitled to their opinion, but sometimes you have to look at things from a different perspective. As you say, who would want this job? Whoever would want it, what sort of incredible job would they be able to do now? Better yet, what would we do with no manager at all? Would that motivate the players? 

 

Personally, as I have said several times since the end of the season, I believe we need a different manager to lead the club forward. However, the club isn't going to be going anywhere but backwards for as long as Randy remains here, so I'd rather stick with Lambert than risk being stuck with somebody worse or even worse than that, nobody at all.

 

Exactly. And despite how much shit he gets it's important to remember that Lambert was seen as a very good manager indeed prior to coming here and he's got a record better than many managers. If this can happen under a manager with his reputation and past then what makes people think similar won't happen under a manager with a worse record? I have no doubt in my mind that if there's no sale and this uncertainty remains then we definitely won't be able to get a manager with same kind of pedigree that Lambert had this time 2 years ago. We'd be really scraping the barrel for managers.

 

 

we also had a very good full back in Bertrand before he came to us.....so I'm not sure what all that means......Moyes was also a good manager before joining Man U.....and so on.

[TRO]

Ron Saunders alone may not have made it at Villa, but a combination of factors help and in Tony Barton he had a productive scout/Assistant that was central to our success.

 

Managers have to pick their men well.

[VillaGoMarching]

A lot of people suggesting that Lambert has the interests of the club at his heart. I'm not convinced. It's all about damage limitation after last year. If anything a season under so many constraints may actually improve his rep again. I'm not convinced his actions from now are anything more than self preservation.

[Big_John_10]

Personally, as I have said several times since the end of the season, I believe we need a different manager to lead the club forward

So its OK for you to want another manager after finally giving up on lambert yet you seem to have a problem with me wanting a new manager.

Would we be scraping the barrel? Yes but to be honest I'm not sure how much worse it could get. Lambert has lost the fans and this season has showed that he's not up to much with this squad. If our form continues like it finished (with the fans against him and benteke not fit, I see no real reason why it won't) we could well be in serious trouble before January comes.

Even after 2 years some of you think things are just going to click for Lambert. Well they haven't when he's had the full support of villa park so I can't see why they would now.

A new manager, and yes it won't be a top name, would come in with different ideas. Lambert's shown his idea with the squad he's built doesn't work so maybe someone else could organise a defence that doesn't ship goals for fun or have a different plan than hoof it to a big target man.

The 2nd half of the season we picked up 18 points from 19 games. The final 10 games we got 7 points from a possible 30. If that kind of form doesn't concern you I'm not sure what will. And to think no one could do better is quite strange. I think a lot of average managers could match or better that

Edited May 21, 2014 by Big_John_10

[Mantis]

 

Exactly. And despite how much shit he gets it's important to remember that Lambert was seen as a very good manager indeed prior to coming here and he's got a record better than many managers. If this can happen under a manager with his reputation and past then what makes people think similar won't happen under a manager with a worse record? I have no doubt in my mind that if there's no sale and this uncertainty remains then we definitely won't be able to get a manager with same kind of pedigree that Lambert had this time 2 years ago. We'd be really scraping the barrel for managers.

 

 

we also had a very good full back in Bertrand before he came to us.....so I'm not sure what all that means......Moyes was also a good manager before joining Man U.....and so on.

 

I still think there's a good manager in there, I just think the circumstances at the club are going to make it tough for any manager.

[TRO]

Despite our plight, its still a massive job to give up.

 

you don't get these jobs in football very often.

 

 

or should i say, you shouldn't unless you are very talented.

[WHY]

Ron Saunders alone may not have made it at Villa, but a combination of factors help and in Tony Barton he had a productive scout/Assistant that was central to our success.

Managers have to pick their men well.

Agree, Brian Little struggled without Gregory.