shaggy Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 What's happened? Seems to be a few more supporters of Paul Lambert on here than at the end of the season. Did he say/do something these past few days? Well we haven't had to watch a Paul Lambert team play football for awhile so that helps. In terms of him staying, I'm not sure it's as noble as people make out. He would struggle to get another prem job and I seriously can't see him giving up a pay off to try and get money from the club through the courts. From his point of view to stay at the club right now is the smart move, not sure its worthy of praise. I made the point several pages back that due to current circumstances Lambert is a very lucky man indeed at the moment. In normal circumstances he would have been sacked at any other Premiership club. I also see that there is an increasing tide for him to stay which is based on the unknown than anything else. Most expect under the same circumstances that we will be relegated next season so how could the situation get worse if Lambert was sacked or did a runner? There is a possibility you know that if a new manager came in he might actually do a little better with the players available. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TrentVilla Posted May 21, 2014 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2014 Since those results were similar to Mcleish would you still state the same if circumstances were the same under Mcleish? Surely this McLeish v Lambert comparison has been done to death already? But no, I wouldn't have the same opinion if Mcleish were still in charge and there are various reasons why and none have anything to do with petty dislikes for Small Heath. To very quickly recap, McLeish lavished money in either wages or transfer fee's on the likes of £9.5m on N'Zogbia and the stupid wages of Given (that isn't hindsight, I said it was stupid at the time). He also inherited a far better squad than Lambert inherited, there is comparison between the relative strengths of the two. There is also little comparison between the way the two managed the team, McLeish signed short term, expensive dross like Hutton not with the clubs long term health in mind but due to a short term desire to cling to a job I'm sure he could hardly believe he landed having just been relegated, again. There is also little to be compared in their managerial records prior to arriving at B6, Lambert turned a club in terminal decline around leading them to successive promotions. McLeish well, he managed to finish 3rd in Scotland with Rangers and everyone knows the rest, a fluke cup win and finishing 9th with Bruce's team shouldn't fool anyone. Trying to draw comparisons between the results of Lambert and McLeish is in my view more than a little daft given the gulf in the difference of circumstances and is normally only done by those who wish to convince people they are right in their condemnation of Lambert. It really has very little to do with proper analysis or comparison. The biggest reason though for a difference for me is one manager set up with 6 defenders at home and Heskey in midfield against Spurs while the other has led us to wins at Anfield, Arsenal and at home to Chelsea. I've intentionally discounted the Man City game as that was a freak. We have twice gone up to Anfield under Lambert and played them off the park, that to me suggests whatever errors he has made and whatever shortcomings he might have he his a better manager than McLeish by some considerable distance. But that is just my view, I don't expect everyone to agree especially those who want to see the back of Lambert, that is after all your right as a supporter to hold whatever view you want. Just don't draw comparison between the results of McLeish and Lambert and expect me to take it seriously. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Under the current circumstances, which half-decent manager would want to come here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted May 21, 2014 Moderator Share Posted May 21, 2014 I made the point several pages back that due to current circumstances Lambert is a very lucky man indeed at the moment. In normal circumstances he would have been sacked at any other Premiership club. You think? I think most clubs in our situation would be very happy with a manager that managed to retain the clubs PL status while removing the high earning deadwood, reducing the wage bill and building a squad out of what was left, youth players and circa £42m. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) Lerner wanted the high wage earners off the books and as many clubs have done in the past these players were "encouraged" to leave by either loaning them out or dropping them from the squad and effectively putting them up for sale. Just out of interest, can you name the *many* other clubs who have tried to get high wage earners to leave by dropping them from the squad and making them train with the under 21s? Edited May 21, 2014 by briny_ear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted May 21, 2014 Moderator Share Posted May 21, 2014 Just out of interest, can you name the *many* other clubs who have tried to get high wage earners to leave by dropping them from the squad and making them train with the under 21s? Ok, just off the top of my head. Chelsea - Anelka, Alex, Malouda and Ferreira were all subjected to this. Man City - Bellamy, Roque Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Tevex Everton - Pistone, Van Der Meyde Fulham - Zamora Newcastle - Ben Arfa It actually happens quite a lot, only its unusual for there to be some many at one club at one time but then not many clubs get themselves in the mess we did and then try and sort it out quite so quickly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie09 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Since those results were similar to Mcleish would you still state the same if circumstances were the same under Mcleish? Surely this McLeish v Lambert comparison has been done to death already? But no, I wouldn't have the same opinion if Mcleish were still in charge and there are various reasons why and none have anything to do with petty dislikes for Small Heath. To very quickly recap, McLeish lavished money in either wages or transfer fee's on the likes of £9.5m on N'Zogbia and the stupid wages of Given (that isn't hindsight, I said it was stupid at the time). He also inherited a far better squad than Lambert inherited, there is comparison between the relative strengths of the two. There is also little comparison between the way the two managed the team, McLeish signed short term, expensive dross like Hutton not with the clubs long term health in mind but due to a short term desire to cling to a job I'm sure he could hardly believe he landed having just been relegated, again. There is also little to be compared in their managerial records prior to arriving at B6, Lambert turned a club in terminal decline around leading them to successive promotions. McLeish well, he managed to finish 3rd in Scotland with Rangers and everyone knows the rest, a fluke cup win and finishing 9th with Bruce's team shouldn't fool anyone. Trying to draw comparisons between the results of Lambert and McLeish is in my view more than a little daft given the gulf in the difference of circumstances and is normally only done by those who wish to convince people they are right in their condemnation of Lambert. It really has very little to do with proper analysis or comparison. The biggest reason though for a difference for me is one manager set up with 6 defenders at home and Heskey in midfield against Spurs while the other has led us to wins at Anfield, Arsenal and at home to Chelsea. I've intentionally discounted the Man City game as that was a freak. We have twice gone up to Anfield under Lambert and played them off the park, that to me suggests whatever errors he has made and whatever shortcomings he might have he his a better manager than McLeish by some considerable distance. But that is just my view, I don't expect everyone to agree especially those who want to see the back of Lambert, that is after all your right as a supporter to hold whatever view you want. Just don't draw comparison between the results of McLeish and Lambert and expect me to take it seriously. Top post with great points, especially the points in bold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) To very quickly recap, McLeish lavished money in either wages or transfer fee's on the likes of £9.5m on N'Zogbia and the stupid wages of Given (that isn't hindsight, I said it was stupid at the time). I think he did waste some money but then he was given more. Lambert's certainly wasted some and if given more I can't say I'd be confident he wouldn't waste it as well. He's signed 5 players who can play in the fullback position and we still haven't got a good one to start next season. He also inherited a far better squad than Lambert inherited Did he? Who was so good that McLeish had that Lambert didn't? There is also little comparison between the way the two managed the team, McLeish signed short term, expensive dross like Hutton not with the clubs long term health in mind but due to a short term desire to cling to a job I'm sure he could hardly believe he landed having just been relegated, again. But one had a protest against him before he joined and the other replaced one of the most hated managers in the clubs history. Of course Lambert could approach the job with more patience. I think you're ignoring a lot if you dismiss the circumstances in which both came into the job. McLeish knew he had to hit the ground running, Lambert delivers two awful seasons and is still defended. There is also little to be compared in their managerial records prior to arriving at B6, Lambert turned a club in terminal decline around leading them to successive promotions. McLeish well, he managed to finish 3rd in Scotland with Rangers and everyone knows the rest, a fluke cup win and finishing 9th with Bruce's team shouldn't fool anyone. That seems a balanced summary of their previous achievements. Trying to draw comparisons between the results of Lambert and McLeish is in my view more than a little daft given the gulf in the difference of circumstances and is normally only done by those who wish to convince people they are right in their condemnation of Lambert. It really has very little to do with proper analysis or comparison. And I think those that dismiss the comparison do so because a manager they've fully backed has produced worse results than a manager they class as useless. The biggest reason though for a difference for me is one manager set up with 6 defenders at home and Heskey in midfield against Spurs while the other has led us to wins at Anfield, Arsenal and at home to Chelsea. I've intentionally discounted the Man City game as that was a freak. We have twice gone up to Anfield under Lambert and played them off the park, that to me suggests whatever errors he has made and whatever shortcomings he might have he his a better manager than McLeish by some considerable distance. So you don't like comparing the two but will when it shows Lambert in a shining light. Regardless of the odd performance Lambert lost the majority of games and finished with the same points and a worse goal difference. Edited May 21, 2014 by Big_John_10 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Under the current circumstances, which half-decent manager would want to come here? This is irrelevant. The results are simply not acceptable for this great club. [/sarcasm] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted May 21, 2014 Moderator Share Posted May 21, 2014 So you don't like comparing the two but will when it shows Lambert in a shining light. Actually, no. I answered a question. I would rather we didn't have to keep having this comparison between the two its utterly pointless. It isn't those defending Lambert that keep bringing it up. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) So you don't like comparing the two but will when it shows Lambert in a shining light. Actually, no. I answered a question. I would rather we didn't have to keep having this comparison between the two its utterly pointless. It isn't those defending Lambert that keep bringing it up. Just one last point McLeish won a total of 7 games, only 4 wins at VP. Lambert won 6 at VP last year but it is constantly heralded as the worst home form of the century, yes losses wise it is, but points wise it isn't. Edited May 21, 2014 by SikhInTrinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Just one last point McLeish won a total of 7 games, only 4 wins at VP. Lambert won 6 at VP last year but it is constantly heralded as the worst home form of the century, yes losses wise it is, but points wise it isn't. This is why I've often said that those kind of records are mostly meaningless - they just don't tell you the full story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Just one last point McLeish won a total of 7 games, only 4 wins at VP. Lambert won 6 at VP last year but it is constantly heralded as the worst home form of the century, yes losses wise it is, but points wise it isn't. This is why I've often said that those kind of records are mostly meaningless - they just don't tell you the full story. The full story being that both of them have been terrible for Aston Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) Just one last point McLeish won a total of 7 games, only 4 wins at VP. Lambert won 6 at VP last year but it is constantly heralded as the worst home form of the century, yes losses wise it is, but points wise it isn't. This is why I've often said that those kind of records are mostly meaningless - they just don't tell you the full story. The full story being that both of them have been terrible for Aston Villa That's not a fact or a statistic, it's just an opinion. Anyway, I wasn't even trying to defend Lambert's home record. Edited May 21, 2014 by Mantis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Just one last point McLeish won a total of 7 games, only 4 wins at VP. Lambert won 6 at VP last year but it is constantly heralded as the worst home form of the century, yes losses wise it is, but points wise it isn't. This is why I've often said that those kind of records are mostly meaningless - they just don't tell you the full story. The full story being that both of them have been terrible for Aston Villa That's not a fact or a statistic, it's just an opinion. Anyway, I wasn't even trying to defend Lambert's home record. An opinion backed up by statistics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Just out of interest, can you name the *many* other clubs who have tried to get high wage earners to leave by dropping them from the squad and making them train with the under 21s? Ok, just off the top of my head. Chelsea - Anelka, Alex, Malouda and Ferreira were all subjected to this. Man City - Bellamy, Roque Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Tevex Everton - Pistone, Van Der Meyde Fulham - Zamora Newcastle - Ben Arfa It actually happens quite a lot, only its unusual for there to be some many at one club at one time but then not many clubs get themselves in the mess we did and then try and sort it out quite so quickly. Well, the question wasn't to you but, since you've answered, i checked one of the claims. Zamora was never banished from the Fulham first team squad and made to train with their under-21s as far as I can recall. He played pretty regularly for their first team - apart from a spell between September 2010 and January 2011 when he broke his leg - until he was transferred to QPR in January 2012 for £6m (more than Fulham paid for him). That strikes me as an example of a club handling the exit of one of their aging players well. So your list lost a bit of credibility for me on first look. Just glancing at a couple of other names, I don't think Bellamy was ever made to train with the Man C under-21s, was he? Nor was Adebayor? And Van der Meyde was excluded from the Everton first team after being hospitalised for alcohol abuse and failing to turn up for training so that looks more like a disciplinary action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) Adebayor might be one, but at Spurs ^^ Regardless if it was Lerner, Lambert or both who created the bomb-squad, it was a very daft decision Edited May 21, 2014 by sne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) Just out of interest, can you name the *many* other clubs who have tried to get high wage earners to leave by dropping them from the squad and making them train with the under 21s? Ok, just off the top of my head. Chelsea - Anelka, Alex, Malouda and Ferreira were all subjected to this. Man City - Bellamy, Roque Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Tevex Everton - Pistone, Van Der Meyde Fulham - Zamora Newcastle - Ben Arfa It actually happens quite a lot, only its unusual for there to be some many at one club at one time but then not many clubs get themselves in the mess we did and then try and sort it out quite so quickly. Well, the question wasn't to you but, since you've answered, i checked one of the claims. Zamora was never banished from the Fulham first team squad and made to train with their under-21s as far as I can recall. He played pretty regularly for their first team - apart from a spell between September 2010 and January 2011 when he broke his leg - until he was transferred to QPR in January 2012 for £6m (more than Fulham paid for him). That strikes me as an example of a club handling the exit of one of their aging players well. So your list lost a bit of credibility for me on first look. Just glancing at a couple of other names, I don't think Bellamy was ever made to train with the Man C under-21s, was he? Nor was Adebayor? And Van der Meyde was excluded from the Everton first team after being hospitalised for alcohol abuse and failing to turn up for training so that looks more like a disciplinary action. Bellamy at Man City under Mancini. He said: “There is no loyalty in football. The only loyal ones are the fans who come and pay money to watch you play. How can I go from having a really good year one year and then the next be told to train with the kids? “You are not allowed to improve yourself, you are not allowed to go to a good team, but you have to go and train with the kids. ‘You are not part of our squad because we want you out. We will swap you with Dzeko at Wolfsburg if you like but if you don’t want that then you can come back and train with the kids again.’ "I got asked to go the Academy [at City] and train with the kids in a totally different part of Manchester. Is that loyalty for my performances last year? Of course it isn’t. Between the players and the clubs - whoever is running them - there is no loyalty.” Mancini also sent Ireland to train with the Academy, so he was used to it. Edited May 21, 2014 by SikhInTrinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Just one last point McLeish won a total of 7 games, only 4 wins at VP. Lambert won 6 at VP last year but it is constantly heralded as the worst home form of the century, yes losses wise it is, but points wise it isn't. This is why I've often said that those kind of records are mostly meaningless - they just don't tell you the full story. The full story being that both of them have been terrible for Aston Villa That's not a fact or a statistic, it's just an opinion. Anyway, I wasn't even trying to defend Lambert's home record. An opinion backed up by statistics Anyway McLeish being a rubbish manager does make Lambert a good manager. Both have done poor jobs with us and neither are to the standard we require. Lambert doing a couple of press conferences does not redeem his poor judgement IMO. Hopefully he is just treading water before the new owner and manager arrive on their white chargers? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacbuddies Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 What's happened? Seems to be a few more supporters of Paul Lambert on here than at the end of the season. Did he say/do something these past few days? Well we haven't had to watch a Paul Lambert team play football for awhile so that helps. In terms of him staying, I'm not sure it's as noble as people make out. He would struggle to get another prem job and I seriously can't see him giving up a pay off to try and get money from the club through the courts. From his point of view to stay at the club right now is the smart move, not sure its worthy of praise. I made the point several pages back that due to current circumstances Lambert is a very lucky man indeed at the moment. In normal circumstances he would have been sacked at any other Premiership club. I also see that there is an increasing tide for him to stay which is based on the unknown than anything else. Most expect under the same circumstances that we will be relegated next season so how could the situation get worse if Lambert was sacked or did a runner? There is a possibility you know that if a new manager came in he might actually do a little better with the players available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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