TrentVilla Posted May 21, 2014 Moderator Share Posted May 21, 2014 Maybe those who still support and defend Lambert have lost sight of the most important factor of all in that league placement and points are the bottom line as a barometer of performance level. How many times have we heard the old cliche the table never lies and certainly if that is the case then your statement better manager than McLeish by some considerable distance has very little substance at all. Or perhaps they think that there is more that should be taken into account that just league placement and points and that they aren't the only barometer. That they think other things should be taken into consideration. If you think McLeish is a better manager than Lambert, well that is your view I'm not going to try and change it but don't expect many people to agree with you. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Exactly. And despite how much shit he gets it's important to remember that Lambert was seen as a very good manager indeed prior to coming here and he's got a record better than many managers. If this can happen under a manager with his reputation and past then what makes people think similar won't happen under a manager with a worse record? I have no doubt in my mind that if there's no sale and this uncertainty remains then we definitely won't be able to get a manager with same kind of pedigree that Lambert had this time 2 years ago. We'd be really scraping the barrel for managers. we also had a very good full back in Bertrand before he came to us.....so I'm not sure what all that means......Moyes was also a good manager before joining Man U.....and so on. I still think there's a good manager in there, I just think the circumstances at the club are going to make it tough for any manager. I respect your point, I really do....but I also believe a good manager can muster some great things from humble resources and yea he has had rat droppings to deal with....but I turn to Pulis and he has also had rat droppings and there has been many examples before him ...even some of our previous managers have mustered a semblance of nous on the football field from said resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Maybe those who still support and defend Lambert have lost sight of the most important factor of all in that league placement and points are the bottom line as a barometer of performance level. How many times have we heard the old cliche the table never lies and certainly if that is the case then your statement better manager than McLeish by some considerable distance has very little substance at all. If you say so. If you like him its your prerogative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Or perhaps they think that there is more that should be taken into account that just league placement and points and that they aren't the only barometer. That they think other things should be taken into consideration. They seemed to think league placement was incredibly important when we sat in 11th place and were hearing all about the progress. It seems to have become less important now it doesn't support the view that he's doing a good job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarpie Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Ron Saunders alone may not have made it at Villa, but a combination of factors help and in Tony Barton he had a productive scout/Assistant that was central to our success. Managers have to pick their men well. Agree, Brian Little struggled without Gregory. I think Brian Clough wasn't neither the same after Peter Taylor left in the early 80s? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted May 21, 2014 Moderator Share Posted May 21, 2014 A lot of people suggesting that Lambert has the interests of the club at his heart. I'm not convinced. It's all about damage limitation after last year. If anything a season under so many constraints may actually improve his rep again. I'm not convinced his actions from now are anything more than self preservation. If he was only interested in self preservation, why not quit and blame the sale of the club. He would get another job. Or why not quit and claim constructive dismissal, ala O'Neill. I don't really see how him sticking at it, in the knowledge the club could be sold and he could be out of a job as being the better option for him for self preservation let alone the prospect of limping through a season if a takeover doesn't happen. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 A lot of people suggesting that Lambert has the interests of the club at his heart. I'm not convinced. It's all about damage limitation after last year. If anything a season under so many constraints may actually improve his rep again. I'm not convinced his actions from now are anything more than self preservation. If he was only interested in self preservation, why not quit and blame the sale of the club. He would get another job. Or why not quit and claim constructive dismissal, ala O'Neill. I don't really see how him sticking at it, in the knowledge the club could be sold and he could be out of a job as being the better option for him for self preservation let alone the prospect of limping through a season if a takeover doesn't happen. No guarantee of getting a premiership job and surely its easier getting a pay off from new owners than trying to take the club to court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Exactly. And despite how much shit he gets it's important to remember that Lambert was seen as a very good manager indeed prior to coming here and he's got a record better than many managers. If this can happen under a manager with his reputation and past then what makes people think similar won't happen under a manager with a worse record? I have no doubt in my mind that if there's no sale and this uncertainty remains then we definitely won't be able to get a manager with same kind of pedigree that Lambert had this time 2 years ago. We'd be really scraping the barrel for managers. we also had a very good full back in Bertrand before he came to us.....so I'm not sure what all that means......Moyes was also a good manager before joining Man U.....and so on. I still think there's a good manager in there, I just think the circumstances at the club are going to make it tough for any manager. I respect your point, I really do....but I also believe a good manager can muster some great things from humble resources and yea he has had rat droppings to deal with....but I turn to Pulis and he has also had rat droppings and there has been many examples before him ...even some of our previous managers have mustered a semblance of nous on the football field from said resources. He's mustered just as much "nous" on the field as any recent Villa manager to be fair. I know that's not saying much of course. For the record, if we get taken over I think it's time for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers13 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 That's kind of true from his track record, on the other hand, he didn't exactly leave his other clubs in poor shape and quit wycombe without another job lined up because he felt he had let them down by not getting them promoted. So he doesn't really screw clubs over. Except maybe colchester, but I think few would've turned down Norwich in that situation. Don't get me wrong, I never blame anyone, players or managers, for moving up the food chain whenever they get an opportunity as I'm sure I would do the same myself. I was just making the point that to say he "loves the club" as Patrick did is gullibility of the highest order. if it's true that he gave him 10m last season to spend on players then it's not Lamberts fault that we are deep in the mire.Quite clearly that isn't true. The net spend was £11m. False. He spent £18.9m this season, so where are you getting the idea that we've made £8m from player sales from? The £10m spend figure was just pushed by Hairyhands and has proven to be complete fiction. He embellished with financial figures to support his Lambert-apologist agenda. I said £11m, not something I got from hairyhands. However, I was partially wrong. The club made €8m in sales, not £8m. So I suppose the spend was a bit higher than £11m. €3m makoun €2.4 bent loan fee €2.1 bannan €600k Ireland loan fee. http://www.transfermarkt.com/aston-villa/alletransfers/verein/405 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onmeedson Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 It's plain to see why Martinez walked away, only for the yes man to plunge straight in and do the masters bidding. You do not have to give this breed any money or any semblance of a chance to build they only follow orders to the letter and in the oliver tradition they dare not to ask for more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarpie Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 That's kind of true from his track record, on the other hand, he didn't exactly leave his other clubs in poor shape and quit wycombe without another job lined up because he felt he had let them down by not getting them promoted. So he doesn't really screw clubs over. Except maybe colchester, but I think few would've turned down Norwich in that situation. Don't get me wrong, I never blame anyone, players or managers, for moving up the food chain whenever they get an opportunity as I'm sure I would do the same myself. I was just making the point that to say he "loves the club" as Patrick did is gullibility of the highest order. if it's true that he gave him 10m last season to spend on players then it's not Lamberts fault that we are deep in the mire. Quite clearly that isn't true. The net spend was £11m. False. He spent £18.9m this season, so where are you getting the idea that we've made £8m from player sales from? The £10m spend figure was just pushed by Hairyhands and has proven to be complete fiction. He embellished with financial figures to support his Lambert-apologist agenda. I said £11m, not something I got from hairyhands. However, I was partially wrong. The club made €8m in sales, not £8m. So I suppose the spend was a bit higher than £11m. €3m makoun €2.4 bent loan fee €2.1 bannan €600k Ireland loan fee.http://www.transfermarkt.com/aston-villa/alletransfers/verein/405 Did we really get 2.1 million for Bannan? Seriously? I thought it was 800k and with potential add ons rising to 1,2-1,5m or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 New owner and new manager, really can't wait for this era to come to an end. I do feel for Lambert in a way and think he is somewhat a victim of circumstances but the football and results have been diabolical and it is extremely hard to see past that. If things stay the same I'm very worried about our prospects for survival next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Exactly. And despite how much shit he gets it's important to remember that Lambert was seen as a very good manager indeed prior to coming here and he's got a record better than many managers. If this can happen under a manager with his reputation and past then what makes people think similar won't happen under a manager with a worse record? I have no doubt in my mind that if there's no sale and this uncertainty remains then we definitely won't be able to get a manager with same kind of pedigree that Lambert had this time 2 years ago. We'd be really scraping the barrel for managers. we also had a very good full back in Bertrand before he came to us.....so I'm not sure what all that means......Moyes was also a good manager before joining Man U.....and so on. I still think there's a good manager in there, I just think the circumstances at the club are going to make it tough for any manager. I respect your point, I really do....but I also believe a good manager can muster some great things from humble resources and yea he has had rat droppings to deal with....but I turn to Pulis and he has also had rat droppings and there has been many examples before him ...even some of our previous managers have mustered a semblance of nous on the football field from said resources. He's mustered just as much "nous" on the field as any recent Villa manager to be fair. I know that's not saying much of course. For the record, if we get taken over I think it's time for a change. I could point out many instances where the basics where ignored during a game.....The Man City game was a perfect example of simple things just not carried out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I could point out many instances where the basics where ignored during a game.....The Man City game was a perfect example of simple things just not carried out. You could, but you'd be wasting your time because I never once said or implied that there weren't many instances where the basics have been ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I said £11m, not something I got from hairyhands. However, I was partially wrong. The club made €8m in sales, not £8m. So I suppose the spend was a bit higher than £11m. €3m makoun €2.4 bent loan fee €2.1 bannan €600k Ireland loan fee.http://www.transfermarkt.com/aston-villa/alletransfers/verein/405 Those Transfermarkt figures are speculative, as are all estimates that try to guess the level of undisclosed fees, and are out of line with the figures on Soccerbase and Transfer League, which place the amount we paid out at £17.2-18.5m. Not sure what basis there is for the Transfermarkt figures on the loans and transfers out but they look a bit optimistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I could point out many instances where the basics where ignored during a game.....The Man City game was a perfect example of simple things just not carried out. You could, but you'd be wasting your time because I never once said or implied that there weren't many instances where the basics have been ignored. I could point out many instances where the basics where ignored during a game.....The Man City game was a perfect example of simple things just not carried out. You could, but you'd be wasting your time because I never once said or implied that there weren't many instances where the basics have been ignored. Mantis, When I see players in abundance failing to defend the back post at a corner or fail to track an overlappig full back as just 2 simply instances.....i start to question the manager. particularly, when i have seen the same thing time and time again in other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I could point out many instances where the basics where ignored during a game.....The Man City game was a perfect example of simple things just not carried out. You could, but you'd be wasting your time because I never once said or implied that there weren't many instances where the basics have been ignored. I could point out many instances where the basics where ignored during a game.....The Man City game was a perfect example of simple things just not carried out. You could, but you'd be wasting your time because I never once said or implied that there weren't many instances where the basics have been ignored. Mantis, When I see players in abundance failing to defend the back post at a corner or fail to track an overlappig full back as just 2 simply instances.....i start to question the manager. particularly, when i have seen the same thing time and time again in other games. Where have I ever denied that there were serious issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer24 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 After the last few days I'm, for once, a bit more optimistic about our chances of survival should the status quo remain. I still believe Lambert has a near impossible task but with Okore back that'd improve defence, Bent would be better than Bowery/ Holt, N'Zogbia better than Albrighton. Not a penny spent. Furthermore we have a few more wages off the books and rumours are Lescott would drop his wages to reasonable level and be free. I'd feel quite confident about a defence with Vlaar, Okore and Lescott available with Clark/ Baker/ Lowton as appropriate. Just no Bennett or Hutton please. An available strike force of Gabby, Weimann and Bent whilst waiting on Kozak and Benteke would be ok. Then midfield which is still easily weakest area and is reason defence has so much pressure, just needs maybe one £5/6m pound decent investment on one player and I think Lambert would comfortably get us 10th to 12th with minimal injury disruptions. Forgetting all the takeover speculation, I think we might have enough to survive again after bringing in the Bomb Squad, a few key returns from injury and a very small investment (which is all we're likely to get) from Lerner into a possibly free defender and an experienced midfielder. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samjp26 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Personally, as I have said several times since the end of the season, I believe we need a different manager to lead the club forward So its OK for you to want another manager after finally giving up on lambert yet you seem to have a problem with me wanting a new manager. I don't think you quite get it. I do want a new manager if the club is to go forward, yes. The problem is at this moment in time, we aren't going forward, we're calling the bomb squad back in under Lerner's instructions and have apparently put a halt on any potential new contracts for players. What we do not need right now is a manager leaving, unable to be replaced and in turn taking us into a pre-season with no guidance whatsoever. I honestly do not think anybody in their right mind would take us on right now, at least with Lambert he has shown us that he can keep us in the league. Now, that isn't an achievement by any feat, but for the coming season if we aren't spending money or trying to improve the squad then we may need the man to keep us up once again. It saddens me too mate, it really does, but I think even if we did scrape the barrel as you say that we're going to be in a sticky situation anyway and I believe personally that we'd be even more likely to go down if they were somebody really shite. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I said £11m, not something I got from hairyhands. However, I was partially wrong. The club made €8m in sales, not £8m. So I suppose the spend was a bit higher than £11m. €3m makoun €2.4 bent loan fee €2.1 bannan €600k Ireland loan fee. http://www.transfermarkt.com/aston-villa/alletransfers/verein/405 Yeah sorry, my comnent about the £10m figure was aimed at the original post in the conversation. With you I was just challenging the £11m net-spend figure but as you've pointed out, you mixed up euros with pounds. Though I would still challenge the Bannan figure, by most accounts we sold him for a nominal fee. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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