Chop chop! Lets all gawp at Newcastle (again)

[Dodgyknees]

I know we have had our battles with Newcastle fans, but I feel sorry for them. No team deserves Bruce. We know how frustrating it is to see this happening and for the majority of the media to back him. Plus their owner is a tit.

Goes against the norm I guess, but I want Newcastle to get rid of both. Rather than fighting near the top than some other teams of recent.

[Keyblade]

On 28/03/2021 at 09:09, avfcDJ said:

I know we have had our battles with Newcastle fans, but I feel sorry for them. No team deserves Bruce. We know how frustrating it is to see this happening and for the majority of the media to back him. Plus their owner is a tit.

Goes against the norm I guess, but I want Newcastle to get rid of both. Rather than fighting near the top than some other teams of recent.

Yeah I almost feel bad for making fun of them. Nobody deserves this.

[Davkaus]

Signing  up Dwight Gayle until he's 34. Looks like they're accepting relegation to me.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Davkaus

[villa89]

57 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Signing  up Dwight Gayle until he's 34. 

Seems like smart business, 

[rjw63]

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

Signing  up Dwight Gayle until he's 34. Looks like they're accepting relegation to me.

Not as awesome a deal as Hogan's four years at the sty

[Demitri_C]

15 hours ago, rjw63 said:

Not as awesome a deal as Hogan's four years at the sty

If that creep scores the winning  goal that keeps them up it would be worth it for them 

Hopefully the teams around them can put some real pressure on them

[Genie]

14 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

If that creep scores the winning  goal that keeps them up it would be worth it for them 

Hopefully the teams around them can put some real pressure on them

They signed him to get them promoted though, not save them from another relegation.

If he was any good they wouldn’t be in the mess they are in.

[Demitri_C]

4 minutes ago, Genie said:

They signed him to get them promoted though, not save them from another relegation.

If he was any good they wouldn’t be in the mess they are in.

He isnt good i agree with that.

If they really signed Hogan thinking he would get promoted then thats hilarous 

[useless]

Gayle is another one of those players that people sneer at, but his goals to minutes ratio in the premier league is pretty decent, twenty-six goals in sixty-five games worth worth of football.

[Zatman]

31 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

He isnt good i agree with that.

If they really signed Hogan thinking he would get promoted then thats hilarous 

we are talking about Dwight Gayle  

[villa89]

23 hours ago, useless said:

Gayle is another one of those players that people sneer at, but his goals to minutes ratio in the premier league is pretty decent, twenty-six goals in sixty-five games worth worth of football.

How good will he be next season, and the season after and the season after that? He's on the decline.

[Vancvillan]

On 30/03/2021 at 05:33, useless said:

Gayle is another one of those players that people sneer at, but his goals to minutes ratio in the premier league is pretty decent, twenty-six goals in sixty-five games worth worth of football.

You're twisting the numbers a bit there - he's made 130 PL appearances.  The fact that a bunch of them weren't the full 90 doesn't mean you should condense all the time into "games worth" of football without a lot more context. 

By that rational Keinan Davis hasn't played a full game in the prem yet so shouldn't be judged on his goal scoring record.

[useless]

It's not twisting the numbers at all, he's scored twenty-six goals in sixty-five games worth worth of football in the premier league, his goals to minutes ratio is good.

If anything it's more misleading to say that he's scored twenty-six goals in one hundred thirty appearances because that doesn't tell you anything about how long he's been on the pitch in those appearances, someone could make a hundred appearances but have spent much less time on the pitch than someone who's made thirty appearances.

Also I would say it's harder to have a good goals to minutes ratio if you're coming on for the odd twenty minutes here and there, than it is you're playing full 90 minutes, so if anything 'condensing the time into games worth football" makes his goalscoring record seem less impressive than it is, and doesn't take into account that a lot of his goals will have come when he won't have played for weeks, so won't have the same level of match fitness or sharpness as that of a striker that's plays every week, and he won't have had a run of games to play himself into form and get into a rhythm.

Also not sure how anything I said suggests Davis shouldn't be judged on his goal scoring record because he hasn't played a full game, especially since I was doing the exact opposite of that in judging Gayles goal scoring record.

[YouUnastanFren]

2 hours ago, Vancvillan said:

You're twisting the numbers a bit there - he's made 130 PL appearances.  The fact that a bunch of them weren't the full 90 doesn't mean you should condense all the time into "games worth" of football without a lot more context. 

By that rational Keinan Davis hasn't played a full game in the prem yet so shouldn't be judged on his goal scoring record.

Goals:Minutes ratio is a useful metric, context always helps but as far as comparing goal contribution rates the data doesn't get much more clear.

Dwight Gayle has scored a goal every 226 minutes in the PL, whether that's over sets of 90 minutes or as an impact sub that's a decent return. He seems to be past his peak though and his numbers are trending downwards. Signing him on a 3 year extension looks like a bad idea.

Not sure I follow the second part. Keinan Davis has played 618 minutes of PL football and has 0 goals so he has no ratio.

Edited April 1, 2021 by YouUnastanFren

[useless]

Edit: And I'm not saying that I think Gayle is a particularly good player, just that his goal scoring record is surprisingly not bad, but there's obvisously a reason he doesn't start many games, and that's probably because he's a Darrent Bent type, that is a player who offers nothing to the team unless he's scoring goals, if you're going to be that type of striker then you need to have a really excellent goalscoring rate for it to be worth having you in the team.

[Vancvillan]

4 hours ago, useless said:

Edit: And I'm not saying that I think Gayle is a particularly good player, just that his goal scoring record is surprisingly not bad, but there's obvisously a reason he doesn't start many games, and that's probably because he's a Darrent Bent type, that is a player who offers nothing to the team unless he's scoring goals, if you're going to be that type of striker then you need to have a really excellent goalscoring rate for it to be worth having you in the team.

There's that context I mentioned.

[Vancvillan]

4 hours ago, YouUnastanFren said:

Goals:Minutes ratio is a useful metric, context always helps but as far as comparing goal contribution rates the data doesn't get much more clear.

Dwight Gayle has scored a goal every 226 minutes in the PL, whether that's over sets of 90 minutes or as an impact sub that's a decent return. He seems to be past his peak though and his numbers are trending downwards. Signing him on a 3 year extension looks like a bad idea.

Not sure I follow the second part. Keinan Davis has played 618 minutes of PL football and has 0 goals so he has no ratio.

Yeah I messed up with Davis' numbers - though he hadn't played 90 mins total this season. Had a toddler screaming at me when I was writing that.

I still disagree that "as far as comparing goal contribution rates the data doesn't get much more clear". That ratio is better than Ollie, but you need context (more data points). Even then, it's a question of interpreting multi data sets and you still end up with (at best) and estimate of performance.

[YouUnastanFren]

2 hours ago, Vancvillan said:

I still disagree that "as far as comparing goal contribution rates the data doesn't get much more clear". That ratio is better than Ollie, but you need context (more data points). Even then, it's a question of interpreting multi data sets and you still end up with (at best) and estimate of performance.

Obviously you need more data to compare "performance" as a whole. As @useless mentioned, it's just his goal scoring rate that is of any use. He does nothing else, Watkins has so many strings to his bow as well as the fact that his goalscoring rate was actually better than Gayle's a few games ago and it's just being skewed by being quite a small sample size of minutes.

I don't think anybody who watches football other than DG's mom would think he's a better player than Watkins. My only point was that minutes:goals ratio is the clearest way to compare goal scoring rate even without the context of games started, minutes played per game and games played per season.

It doesn't compare workrate, defensive contribution, injury resistance, hold up play, assist rate or any of the other things Watkins is clearly miles ahead on but I would've thought that went without saying. Fwiw I think it's quite likely that OW will finish this season with a better min/goal than DG has in his career anyway.

 

[Vancvillan]

On 01/04/2021 at 23:23, YouUnastanFren said:

Obviously you need more data to compare "performance" as a whole. As @useless mentioned, it's just his goal scoring rate that is of any use. He does nothing else, Watkins has so many strings to his bow as well as the fact that his goalscoring rate was actually better than Gayle's a few games ago and it's just being skewed by being quite a small sample size of minutes.

I don't think anybody who watches football other than DG's mom would think he's a better player than Watkins. My only point was that minutes:goals ratio is the clearest way to compare goal scoring rate even without the context of games started, minutes played per game and games played per season.

It doesn't compare workrate, defensive contribution, injury resistance, hold up play, assist rate or any of the other things Watkins is clearly miles ahead on but I would've thought that went without saying. Fwiw I think it's quite likely that OW will finish this season with a better min/goal than DG has in his career anyway.

 

As you say, goals:minutes (literally goal scoring rate) is the clearest stat for goal scoring rate. That's what the stat is. 

My point is that without context or other data it's not valuable. People only mention a stat to analyze something historical, make a prediction about the future, or a combination of the two. That stat alone is borderline useless without context.

Minutes/goal tells you the rate at which something happened, in the same way that distance/time tells you speed. If we offered Trez a bumper contract because last season there were only two players in the Premier League faster than him (top speed) and "you can always use pace on the wing", I'm sure everyone would argue for context.

Fwiw I think we're saying almost the same thing - that any stat alone without context is not useful in analyzing or predicting anything. But I'm saying that the context is often more important than a singular data point.

Back on topic - Newcastle are trash, and if that's not another nail in Jose's coffin then they might as well offer him a lifetime contract.

[Zatman]