Manager Paul Lambert

[HalfTimePost]

If he had made use of some of the players he cast aside he wouldn't have needed to buy 8 new players and could have concentrated £18m on key areas.

We could have used Cuellar or Collins over the Christmas period. Even Warnock would have been useful if Lambert had got him playing and back into his old form. Ireland and Bent are also players we have under used and even N'Zogbia can be made use of. Hutton I will agree there was little hope of getting anything from

I'm not saying these players are our future but not having options has cost us during our recent injury crisis.

We cannot afford them.

[mykeyb]

How much do we save by not playing them

[TrentVilla]

How much do we save by not playing them

Ceullar and Collins? Quite a bit

[HalfTimePost]

How much do we save by not playing them

80k a week on Cuellar and Collins.

Whatever Bolton paid towards Warnocks wages

And would Hutton be trying to find himself a new club if he was getting regular games here on £35k a week? I doubt it. Ostracising him from the team forces him out

[Mantis]

It's sad to think that last season's back 5 + Cuellar was probably on around 250k combined (and that's a conservative estimate).

Edited January 7, 2013 by Mantis

[LondonLax]

We cannot afford them.

And yet we are still paying most of their wages whilst not playing them. We might as well have got some use out of them to help the cause.

[VillaCas]

And yet we are still paying most of their wages whilst not playing them. We might as well have got some use out of them to help the cause.

You just don't get it do you?

Cuellar gone = money saved, Collins gone = money saved, Warnock loaned = money saved, Hutton loaned = money saved + as someone else stated if we played them why would they be looking elsewhere and hopefully be gone and off the wagebill soon. In your eyes, the more players don't play for us the better they become

We are starting over. Strap in because it's going to be a bumpy ride

[terrytini]

terrytini, on 05 January 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Only 5 defeats in 16 games, and 3 of those to the Top 3 Clubs, through to a semi-final, and a 4th Round.

Not too bad for a beginning.

Briny Said...

Ha ha, good example of how you can twist statistics to prove any case. How about an alternative of: 18 goals conceded in the last 5 games, including a heavy home defeat against a key relegation rival and an unconvincing cup win against a weakened side from the lower reaches of the Championship. Buy in January, Mr Lambert!

I haven't twisted anything at all - it is not an example of twisting statistics it is simply an example of how you can look a tthings. You are looking at 5 games - I could say that is a more selective stat !

And then you bring in an opinion - now you can have what opinion you like but it is definitely NOt a statistic !

If opinions enter into it I could easily write off the other 2 defeats, those from none Top 3 Clubs, by saying the others were against Spurs- probably a Top 4 Club, and Wigan, against whom we have long had a poor home record.

But all that strays from the point. Whilst we obviously need to do even better in the League (even those who dont like PL cant ask for an improvement in the Cup!) I am simply pointing out that if you look over the period it is a record of only 2 defeats in 16 games from Clubs outside the Top 3. You may not think it is enough, but it is a fact!!

Edited January 8, 2013 by terrytini

[LondonLax]

You just don't get it do you?

Cuellar gone = money saved, Collins gone = money saved, Warnock loaned = money saved, Hutton loaned = money saved + as someone else stated if we played them why would they be looking elsewhere and hopefully be gone and off the wagebill soon. In your eyes, the more players don't play for us the better they become

We are starting over. Strap in because it's going to be a bumpy ride

We are still paying most of the wages of the players loaned and we brought in players like KEA and Bennett who have hardly played so we are paying wages twice.

I think we could have gotten more out of the players we have benched/loaned and we would have actually saved money by making use of them. Then we could have targeted the budget on 3 or 4 key players to actually improve us rather than 8 players who weaken the side but might get better at some undefined point in the future.

It was a gamble Lambert took and at this stage it hasn't paid off.

[Nabby]

I would assume that Hutton and Warnock have part of their Salary appearance based hence why they are not being selected.I wonder in the case of Both Warnock and Dunne with only 6 months left if its worth us offering them a settlement figure to leave ala the route Liverpool took with Cole.

[villan_007]

We are still paying most of the wages of the players loaned and we brought in players like KEA and Bennett who have hardly played so we are paying wages twice.

I think we could have gotten more out of the players we have benched/loaned and we would have actually saved money by making use of them. Then we could have targeted the budget on 3 or 4 key players to actually improve us rather than 8 players who weaken the side but might get better at some undefined point in the future.

It was a gamble Lambert took and at this stage it hasn't paid off.

Are you for real mate??

So you are saying that we would have been better off using warnock on hutton?? only on VT

[LondonLax]

Are you for real mate??

So you are saying that we would have been better off using warnock on hutton?? only on VT

I think we would have been better off using Bent, Ireland, N'Zogbia, Warnock and Cuellar then a lot of the players we have used so far. We could have then used the transfer budget to bring in 3 or 4 quality additions to the team who would have actually improved us. Instead we brought in 8 and went backwards. If we really could not afford to give Cuellar a new contract how are we going to afford any new addtions in the January window?

It is pretty crazy to believe Lambert could not have done any better than he has.

Edited January 8, 2013 by LondonLax

[AvfcRigo82]

The point i was making concerning who purchased the players you mentioned was in relation to a poor manager making the wrong choice of player rather than it being attributed to just experience.

In that case would you agree all of the last 3 Managers are to blame for this or who does the buck stop with?

At least this time you have tried to answer that by stating there is no difference between N'Zogbia and Adam. Actually there is a difference and that difference is quality. Adam has already shown at Stoke that quality while KEA has shown us what?

KEA? who mentioned him? He cannot be compared to anyone since only being here a few months. - I think you mean N'Zogbia.

The difference is quality is it? And of the two players which one in your view has the most quality? For me they both have and it is an example of premier league experience you mention. N'Zogbia cost us 10m and he has simply not been the same player he was at Wigan and for me now one of the many reasons RL is no longer wanting to go down the route of buying PL Experience!

You also go on to say that Lerner has had his fingers severly burned by signing experienced players yet we put in a bid for Dempsey. Dempsey you would have to agree is an experienced Premiership player is he not. The difference is quality! Lerner got his fingers burnt not by purchasing experienced players but by employing poor managers who purchased the wrong type of experience which lacked quality!

You again mention this 20m budget and how Lambert's hands were tied by that budget yet after most of our transfer business was done we put in a bid for Dempsey. Lambert has already admitted that he didn't spend all of his budget so he wasn't exactly tied to 17m-20m was he? Wouldn't Dempsey have commanded high wages?

Yes your absolutely right I did say he got his fingers severely burned and yes we perhaps did put in a bid for Dempsey who is in the chamber of PL Experience.

But who is to say he knew fine well he would never come to us as we were only offering say 40k a week tops in wages knowing full well Spurs where/did offer double that amount.

He is not going to upsticks from London to midlands for 40k less a week when his new club is only round the corner.

For me It still shows us the fans that - atleast we tried and he has funds to use if needed. For me though I am glad he 'cough "turned us down". - Would we really need 6 strikers? No. This is how it is obvious it was a bluff bid.

Don't take to heart and believe everything that you read in the press mate as most of the time it's what is called a smoke screen from whats really going on.

As for the 20m or so budget I am not saying and have not said anyone has there hands tied. IIRC all 4 managers have been given about 20/25m to start off with in there first season but the last three of them did not really use there's to great effect.

MON spent about 25m on 4 players with high wages. (one had minor PL Experience and cost us 9.5m!!)

GH blew his budget of around 22m or so on 2 players (one had PL experience and cost us 17m..so far)

BFM wasted 18m on 3 players with ridiculous wages and contracts. (All three had PL experience)

PL wisely so far spent around 20m on 8 players with reasonable wages and contracts. (Not one of them has PL Experience)

You get more value for money when you stop wasting money on PL Experienced players and Randy has now realised this and it is about time you started paying attention and realised it too.

Of the players i have mentioned where have i said we would be in 'the land of milk and honey.' This is yet another statement by you used to enhance your debate rather than quote what i have said. I have continually stated that purchasing the players i have mentioned wouldn't have had us in the bottom five of the table and we wouldn't be struggling in the way that we are now.

I don't need to enhance anything mate. You have showed on more than one occasion your capable of giving yourself enough rope to hang yourself with.

You are the one who wants the PL Experienced dream team with high costing over 27's and Harry Potter as manager which in my view I assume your thinking we would hit the land of milk and honey had your dream come true was my exact point.

And interestingly enough how do you know if your dream team of PL Experienced players had been signed we wouldn't be in the bottom 5?

I think you only need to look at QPR to realise your philosophy does not always work or was that what happened on your season on Football Manager?

You can't just click reset and start again when you have **** the whole lot up like Mark Hughes did and I bet while he stood on the touchline in some of his last QPR games I bet he was wishing he could just got back to his last save point in August and reload the game.

I also see that you have yet again excluded Diame another player that i put forward. Are you going to put that down to memory loss again or, have you just excluded him because it doesn't serve your debate as i had originally suspected?

To correct you again i have mentioned four players. Berbatov, Diame, Adam and Olsson. One was on a free. One wouldn't have cost much more than KEA and another from Blackburn who would have cost no more than 4m-5m. Berbatov's fee was 5m plus his wages which i have already admitted would have been high but then again so would Dempsey's wages who we tried to buy. Where's the 40m-50m you have quoted?

I have not excluded Diame but I did not see the need to comment on a player who signed for another club.

Yes he was a good buy on a free if that is what you want to hear but were we ever in for me? We will never know. Good luck to him and his new club.

The others might not have cost much but there wages and contracts would have and they are all players we would get no return from.

It is really simply to see Morph - RANDY HAS STOPPED PISSING MONEY DOWN THE DRAIN!

Rather than going through every one of Lambert's signings, simple question. Have they improved our weaknesses? You could probably go into the conference league and with a little nous pick up several players who would improve in value but would they improve our team?

Our defense is probably worse than before Lambert arrived and our midfield, well, what are the majority of posters on here still crying out for?

In Benteke he has found a good player there and it will be interesting to see whether his dip in form is due to fatique or Premiership defences working him out? If he is as good as everyone says he is then he should be able to rise above that. We shall see?

I think you answered your own question there but we cannot really judge players only being at the club 6 months so ask me again at the end of the season.

But I suppose it is easy to jump on fault and state the obvious. Everyone knows the defence is a shambles but PL had to spend wisely in ALL positions. Did you just want him to do what the last 3 managers have done and blow his budget on 2 expensive signings? Worrying if you did.

But again with Benteke and everyone else we shall see indeed!

The football in the last couple of months has been encouraging has it. Rather than state what has already been stated before i would just say that you are very easily pleased.

Finally you mention our run in the cup to justifiy your reasoning for a new dawn.

History has already shown that you can have success in cup competitions while still being relegated.

Well done Columbo.

.

[VillaCas]

I think we would have been better off using Bent, Ireland, N'Zogbia, Warnock and Cuellar then a lot of the players we have used so far. We could have then used the transfer budget to bring in 3 or 4 quality additions to the team who would have actually improved us. Instead we brought in 8 and went backwards. If we really could not afford to give Cuellar a new contract how are we going to afford any new addtions in the January window?

It is pretty crazy to believe Lambert could not have done any better than he has.

We'll just have to agree to disagree - I would guess the vast majority would not want Warnock, Hutton etc playing. Bent, Ireland and Zog have had chances but failed to take them. Cuellar had injury problems and was let go because of that - that is always a gamble - he may play all season for Sunderland, he may not.

Collins was replaced by Vlaar - Vlaar got injured, Collins could have got injured - that's just bad luck

When you are rebuilding you are always going to have ups and downs - in 18 months time the whole playing staff will have been transformed and we will look back on this as absolutely the right thing to do

[The_Lions_Roar]

I think we would have been better off using Bent, Ireland, N'Zogbia, Warnock and Cuellar then a lot of the players we have used so far. We could have then used the transfer budget to bring in 3 or 4 quality additions to the team who would have actually improved us. Instead we brought in 8 and went backwards. If we really could not afford to give Cuellar a new contract how are we going to afford any new addtions in the January window?

It is pretty crazy to believe Lambert could not have done any better than he has.

I agree on bent, Ireland and nzogbia, although all 3 have had injuries this season and then not done the business when given the chance. Although nzogbia and Ireland haven looked useless since arriving so not sure how to get the best out of them. I really think lambert was left with little option but to do what he's done. The squad needed bodies in at lower wages. I guess he could of singed half the players he did that are slightly better but probably leave with little resale value and hen be back where we were last season. I certainly support what he's doing, it seems those that failed to realise that we'd be where we are now are the ones that aren't happy.

[Jarpie]

I think part of the reason why Lerner got rid of TSM was his almost utterly failed transfers. N'Zogbia and Hutton were just complete waste of money and signing Jenas on loan given his horrendous injuryhistory was ridiculous. Only reasonable succesful buy was Given but arguably TSM should've given chance for Guzan to show what he can do before buying a new 'keeper.

I bet TSM sold N'Zogbia to the board as replacement for either Young and/or Downing and praised him to be as good as them and then he turned out to be failure which probably pissed off Lerner and Faulkner.

[HalfTimePost]

Lambert made a mistake only signing one centre half. He made a mistake not signing a defensive midfielder but overall his signings are good and he could only make so many signings.

For the money spent I would look at Lamberts signings so far as:

Good

Guzan

Lowton

Westwood

Benteke

Potentially Good

Vlaar - He would certainly be in the 'Good' section were it not for his injury. If he can prove he isn't injury prone then this is a good signing

Bennett - Again has had a few injuries but he was just before we signed him, surprised we didnt take non-injured Aaron Cresswell instead. That said, he's starting to show something lately and could prove to be a good signing, but he looked poor at the start of the season

Poor

KEA - Feel like i'm being slightly harsh here as I was impressed in his first few appearances but he hasn't looked good since but it has taken some very good players longer than 6 months to get used to the prem. I just feel like he can't tackle, he doesn't seem to be able to sprint as he's always ball watching and doesn't offer much. That said he is being played as a more defensive player than I think he naturally is. Maybe if we get a proper DM in we'll see a new KEA.

Needs more time

Bowery - not seen him play yet myself so not going to make a comment

As such, Lambert has made some mistakes but he's earned my trust in the market and so long as his good signings continue to outweigh the bad he will continue to do so. But surely he know now that we desperately need to make up for the CB and DM he failed to sign in the summer.

Edited January 8, 2013 by HalfTimePost

[El-Reacho]

Poor

KEA - Feel like i'm being slightly harsh here as I was impressed in his first few appearances but he hasn't looked good since but it has taken some very good players longer than 6 months to get used to the prem. I just feel like he can't tackle, he doesn't seem to be able to sprint as he's always ball watching and doesn't offer much. That said he is being played as a more defensive player than I think he naturally is. Maybe if we get a proper DM in we'll see a new KEA.

Particularly in that position. The best defensive midfielders tend to grow into that position over the course of a career. Pirlo was in his late twenties before he became properly adept as a deep midfielder- likewise Makelele, Carrick's playing better now than he ever has for Utd. Younger players like Tiote and Mikel have shown flashes of quality but when they subsequently get singled out and closed down quickly they get found out. It's a far harder position to play than a more advanced midfielder - much higher risk.

[Denis_B]

Londonlax - I cannot believe you would have Hutton and Nocker anywhere near the first team give ntheir 'alleged' disruptive behaviour and comments - 'Shit club, shit fans etc etc.....'

They are where the yare so they don't 'infect' the younger players being brought through

[LondonLax]

Londonlax - I cannot believe you would have Hutton and Nocker anywhere near the first team give ntheir 'alleged' disruptive behaviour and comments - 'Shit club, shit fans etc etc.....'

They are where the yare so they don't 'infect' the younger players being brought through

I did say at the top of the last page that Hutton was a step too far, the guy is a liability.

I also think Warnock is not very good but at the same time the players we have had at left back have actually been worse so far. Bennett could go on the be great but whilst he is finding his feet we have had to carry him and we don't have the quality to do that in our back line.

Perhaps it is easy to say in retrospect but then I am down on record (in one of these threads ) as saying our line up looked worse at the start of this season after Lamberts shake up than at the start of last season and it seems to have played out that way.