il_serpente Posted June 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) Interesting piece about what’s really going on in Seattle’s CHOP. No surprise that it’s nothing like what Fox News and Trump are portraying it. SEATTLE — It seems I live in a city undergoing a “totalitarian takeover” that will lead to “fascist outcomes” and could “metastasize across the country.” Its government “has handed over an entire portion of the city to domestic terrorists.” This “group of rogue protesters” is attempting “to get a stranglehold on the city.” This radical “army” of “conquistadors” has “rolled over the police like Cortez rolling over the Aztecs.” Welcome to our world, out here in Seattle—at least according to the hosts and commentators of Fox News. Lesser voices on the digital right have announced even more dire supposed developments: “Rapper-turned-warlord rules commune streets with the iron fist of a privatized police force.” But it’s Fox that has been all over the story of the so-called Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone or CHAZ (which its Black Lives Matter organizers on Saturday renamed the Capitol Hill Organized Protest, CHOP): four-plus blocks of street and sidewalk in Seattle’s traditional gay and bohemian nightlife district, surrounding a boarded-up police precinct headquarters that the mayor ordered vacated last Monday to dampen a week-and-a-half of escalating confrontations between police and protesters. From there, the fluid protests, spearheaded by BLM but involving a wide spectrum of activists and ordinary citizens, coalesced with surprising rapidity into something like a provisional government.... https://apple.news/AFu7Mi2lQTxCBhWXYhkYXbw Edited June 16, 2020 by il_serpente Added excerpt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Keyblade said: Did you not see the video? Yes. Wasn't exactly a play by play video was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Yes. Wasn't exactly a play by play video was it? im not sure what your point with it is because it was a fight rather than resisting arrest his shooting was ok? or that the police did nothing wrong? because im of the opinion that the police were wrong in how they tried to arrest him and wrong in how they shot him, the bit in-between is a result of poor policing of a drunk man which resulted in a reaction that I would expect to be common 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il_serpente Posted June 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) Scary account of what the Republicans have already been doing and will continue to do to set the stage for stealing the election and predicting a Trump victory: ... In our most recent conversation, Palast warns that Joe Biden's chances against Donald Trump are worse than the polls suggest because millions of Democrats will have their votes thrown out on Election Day. Moreover, many of those voters will have no idea that their votes were purged and therefore not counted. ... https://www.salon.com/2020/06/15/investigative-journalist-greg-palast-heres-how-trump-will-steal-the-2020-election/ Edited June 16, 2020 by il_serpente Added excerpt 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, villa4europe said: im not sure what your point with it is because it was a fight rather than resisting arrest his shooting was ok? or that the police did nothing wrong? because im of the opinion that the police were wrong in how they tried to arrest him and wrong in how they shot him, the bit in-between is a result of poor policing of a drunk man which resulted in a reaction that I would expect to be common Was more a case where I think it's important to tell the story as it actually happened. Trying to paint a different picture does nobody no favours. And that's something that irks me about these social discussions about change. They are important, but they very often slide out and don't tell the whole story, which annoys me. Like I said it was not justifiable use of force. And the US law enforcement and society is not something to strive for when it comes to the use of fire arms. I do however think it's rather relevant to tell the correct story. And the Washington Post is rather objective in these cases from my experience. If so, the fact is that he did fight the police, he did steal a weapon. He did fire the weapon at law enforcement. It doesn't mean they were right to open fire, cause they obviously were not right, but it's weird to me to use this as a BLM case. There's so many cases to use as examples. And I can see exactly the same response from the police if a white person did it. Like I said this case is more about poor law enforcement. Lack of training and a horrific gun culture. Rather than something to do with racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 24 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Was more a case where I think it's important to tell the story as it actually happened. Trying to paint a different picture does nobody no favours. And that's something that irks me about these social discussions about change. They are important, but they very often slide out and don't tell the whole story, which annoys me. Like I said it was not justifiable use of force. And the US law enforcement and society is not something to strive for when it comes to the use of fire arms. I do however think it's rather relevant to tell the correct story. And the Washington Post is rather objective in these cases from my experience. If so, the fact is that he did fight the police, he did steal a weapon. He did fire the weapon at law enforcement. It doesn't mean they were right to open fire, cause they obviously were not right, but it's weird to me to use this as a BLM case. There's so many cases to use as examples. And I can see exactly the same response from the police if a white person did it. Like I said this case is more about poor law enforcement. Lack of training and a horrific gun culture. Rather than something to do with racism. but your doing exactly what Trump is doing, which is looking at isolated instances and saying you can see the same response from the police if a white person did it. That's part of the point when faced with the same situation, the stats show that black people are multiple times likely to be killed in these scenarios than white people and the question is why? That's not because of a gun because a gun only shoots when fired but because of actions of police officers. Why in the same situation does a black man die far more often than a white man as a percentage of incidents? Yes you may be right that a white man may have had the same outcome but stats show that a black man is more likely to get that outcome than a white man. That's where the racism comes in. Most of the BLM is about the constant situations and stats happening and not about the individual cases. Floyd pushed them over the edge at this time and reasons for the protests but Brooks just continues to highlights it and yes more subjective but continues the question of why he died. As for guns, I think we all agree (outside America) around not having guns. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 You need to be careful about what you're saying now. Context is everything. I just think it's important to tell things as they actually happened. That there's a insitutional shooter bias within the law enforcement wouldn't surprise me, but this spesific case seems to me to be more about inadequate training and a stupid gun culture than anything to do with this person being black. I think moving the discussion that way rather takes away the importance of all the other cases where it's actually a thing. But once we're on a topic that's uncomfortable to discuss. What's the relative percentages black, white and hispanic for instance when it comes to gun violence? To any violence? To violence against law enforcement? Would be interesting to get some numbers up. I know for a fact I read that black people serve much longer prison sentences on average than other convicts. Now that's actual racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Watched something on the Floyd case yesterday evening. What I hadn’t known was the start of it all. He’d bought some cigarettes or the people he was with had bought them and someone had passed a fake banknote. The shop assistant had come out of the shop and discussed it with them, then it appears, calmly had informed the police. Floyd and the others had stayed there, waiting for the police to arrive. Then somehow we manage to progress from calmly sat waiting for the police to come, to dead, bleeding from the mouth with a crowd on the pavement pleading with the police that he looks like he’s dying. The policeman with his knee in the neck long after it’s clear Floyd has passed out and an ambulance has been called. Bleeding from the mouth, a knee in his neck, he stops saying he can’t breath, and passes out. It’s quite telling that the shop involved, the staff were wearing Floyd tee shirts, the shop hasn’t been vandalised in any way. There was what appears to have been a humdrum incident, everyone sat and waited for the police to come. The police managed to turn it in to a death in front of pleading witnesses. Mind bogglingly sad as a one off incident and one off incidents can happen to anyone. But all the data suggests the outcome was largely because he was black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 17 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: You need to be careful about what you're saying now. Context is everything. I just think it's important to tell things as they actually happened. That there's a insitutional shooter bias within the law enforcement wouldn't surprise me, but this spesific case seems to me to be more about inadequate training and a stupid gun culture than anything to do with this person being black. I think moving the discussion that way rather takes away the importance of all the other cases where it's actually a thing. But once we're on a topic that's uncomfortable to discuss. What's the relative percentages black, white and hispanic for instance when it comes to gun violence? To any violence? To violence against law enforcement? Would be interesting to get some numbers up. I know for a fact I read that black people serve much longer prison sentences on average than other convicts. Now that's actual racism. It absolutely does have something to do with him being black in that his reaction to being arrested would likely be very different to your or my reaction in that instance. His fear of police is born out of the uncomfortable relationship between US police and its black citizens. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, LondonLax said: It absolutely does have something to do with him being black in that his reaction to being arrested would likely be very different to your or my reaction in that instance. His fear of police is born out of the uncomfortable relationship between US police and its black citizens. Speculation. Either way my point was that it's not a certainty the shooting happened due to him being black. It was his actions that led to the shooting, easily helped by their horrible gun culture and poor training. Assuming this drunk dude acted out of fear, thus he stole the weapon, hit the cop and fired the weapon at the police. Assume that's because he feared them, and it's still a case where it wasn't racism or the cops treating the black person differently. Thus it's a weird case to promote through BML. You can argue his irrational fear of police points to the distrust in the system and what it represents, but that's not how the case is brought forward. Edited June 16, 2020 by KenjiOgiwara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: You need to be careful about what you're saying now. Context is everything. I just think it's important to tell things as they actually happened. That there's a insitutional shooter bias within the law enforcement wouldn't surprise me, but this spesific case seems to me to be more about inadequate training and a stupid gun culture than anything to do with this person being black. I think moving the discussion that way rather takes away the importance of all the other cases where it's actually a thing. but that's your assumption to be fair To be honest I'm on the fence with this case. Maybe we'll know more over the coming days/weeks. My point is that in the same situation stats prove that a black man is more likely to be killed by a police officer than a white man in the US. As for the stats, I've seen them in a number of different ways from a number of sources. If I get chance later I will dig out a few from previous discussions as I dont have them to hand.....unless somebody who has them to hand reading this can post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 3 people a day every day die at the hands of the police in the US If you are black and you interact with the police, there is a 1:1,000 chance you will not survive that interaction Yes, each individual incident can be explained away. But yes, it absolutely did have a great deal to do with him being black, all the statistics say so. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: 3 people a day every day die at the hands of the police in the US If you are black and you interact with the police, there is a 1:1,000 chance you will not survive that interaction Yes, each individual incident can be explained away. But yes, it absolutely did have a great deal to do with him being black, all the statistics say so. I'd call that nonsense, but each to their own. We could have correlation causation debates until Colloseum falls on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 1 minute ago, KenjiOgiwara said: I'd call that nonsense, but each to their own. We could have correlation causation debates until Colloseum falls on here. Genuinely, why is it nonsense? Are you disputing the stats? Or do you think there’s a factor beyond race profiling that’s having an impact here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Like I said we can argue correlation and causation all day long. The stats you are looking at has no input on whether this was a racially motivated murder what so ever. In fact there's very little that suggests he was killed or harassed due to being black. This is largely what I was on about when I started my original post way back. These sort of discussion makes people ignore what's in front of them. And it's important for a whole lot of reasons to be correct about what happened. Unless you guys have access to a completely different video than me, you will see the police officers being polite and not having any out of the normal behaviour towards this man. They proceeded to do their job, he decided to fight them, hit them, steal their weapon and shot it at them. And everything points to THAT being the reason he was shot. Nothing to do about anything else. Now I don't agree with how the US police thinks it's a go to solution to shot everyone that doesn't listen, but that's an entirely different discussion and that's also what I tried pointing out earlier. In such a bonkers police country as the US, if I got drunk, sat my ass down at a mickey d drive through, started fighting the police, steal their weapon, use it against them. I would expect to be shot. Doesn't surprise me the slightest and I just can't see it being anything to do with racism. And it's akward for me when it's used in this instance cause I think it drags away the importance of that discussion for those cases it actually matters. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 35 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: if I got drunk, sat my ass down at a mickey d drive through, started fighting the police, steal their weapon, use it against them. I would expect to be shot. Doesn't surprise me the slightest and I just can't see it being anything to do with racism. And it's akward for me when it's used in this instance cause I think it drags away the importance of that discussion for those cases it actually matters. Ok, just for a sec forget the racism, why would you expect to be shot even in America? Obviously they dont because the officer has been fired (pardon the unintentional pun) and it is now likely he will be charged with something, whatever those charges maybe. p.s. I apologise as well to you, have not long ago seen on the news a separate public video of the scene where Brooks did swing a punch or two. It's the first video angle I've seen that so apologies to you saying he didnt fight but only struggled. Surprising after seeing so many different angles beforehand that I didnt see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2020 19 hours ago, villakram said: Ask and you shall receive. Keep this man as far away from a microphone as possible. Biden seems like quite a poor opposition for Trump. but there are countless examples of Trump stumbling over words and talking absolute shite into a microphone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trom_borg Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 23 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Biden seems like quite a poor opposition for Trump. but there are countless examples of Trump stumbling over words and talking absolute shite into a microphone. You're ofc correct on that. But if we all zoom out for a moment and think about the implications of this argument in relation to what politics and elections really should be about, it is just mind boggling and numbing tbh... One candidates obvious mental impairment is not so consequential because his opponent is as bad. What a time to be alive, we truly live in bizarro world 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2020 18 minutes ago, trom_borg said: You're ofc correct on that. But if we all zoom out for a moment and think about the implications of this argument in relation to what politics and elections really should be about, it is just mind boggling and numbing tbh... One candidates obvious mental impairment is not so consequential because his opponent is as bad. What a time to be alive, we truly live in bizarro world I totally agree. The fact Biden is the best opposition they could come up with is crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 1 hour ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Like I said we can argue correlation and causation all day long. So, this would be pure conjecture, a guess. But what would be your guess for why its 3 times more likely you’ll killed by the police if you’re black than if you’re white? Do you see it as an education thing? A poverty thing? Luck? False statistics? As soon as that incident started, he was 3 times more likely to die than I would have been in the same incident. What’s your guess as to why that might be if skin colour is ruled out? Not something that can be proved, what’s your hunch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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