International General England thread

[BOF]

I don't understand this idea that it is foreign players in the premier league causing the issue.

Well it's a large part of it. It's also affecting the other home nations who used to find their better players plying their trade in the English top flight when foreigners preferred to stay away. Now it's more common for the Scotlands, Wales', Norn Irons to be picking players from the Championship and below. I don't see how you can't see that a league made up of 65% foreigners isn't in a big way restricting the opportunities of English/British players. Many players who could be playing and progressing their game in a first team are instead sitting on benches or playing lower down. Yes the top players will in theory still break through but we don't know if there are other top players never getting their chance in a first team. It's a slow suffocation. As for Belgium. This current crop are a one-off and they're not even playing in the Belgian league anyway. The problem is almost unique to the Premier League owing to the amount of money ploughed into it by Sky resulting in the wages attracting people from everywhere who otherwise wouldn't go there if all things were equal.

We really do need to treat the U21 tournaments with a bit more respect. It would be far more beneficial for the future of English football if Wilshere, Oxlaide Chamberlain, Barkeley and Townsend were all playing together on a regular basis for the U21s. Instead, they get hoisted into the senior team at the first available opportunity and don't get given the chance to learn to play together.

Egg-zakly!

[BG_Villa_Fan]

I don't understand this idea that it is foreign players in the premier league causing the issue.

The Belgium top flight is championship standard (at best) so their best players also have to break into a tough premier league yet they manage it because they have talented youngsters coming through.

If England had a good group of young players coming up they would get bought but the simple fact is that the talent isn't there.

I don't think that's exactly true because these Belgium players get the chance to play regularly for their teams, albeit weaker than Prem league teams, and show what they can do before they're bought. And in a lot of the cases they move to some other country and club before they get to the top 4/5 leagues. English players rarely get the chance to play consistently even for weaker teams. Even if they do, at the first glance of real talent they get bought immediately by some of the top 4 teams and begin rotting on their benches, see Jack Rodwell, Scott Sinclair and others.

[Genie]

When Wilshere was subbed I nearly threw my TV through the window as the commentators were asking each other in utter shock why he was subbed. HOW ABOUT HE DID FECK ALL, AS USUAL.

 

It was inconceivable to them that he would be taken off based on performance.

[Shillzz]

When Wilshere was subbed I nearly threw my TV through the window as the commentators were asking each other in utter shock why he was subbed. HOW ABOUT HE DID FECK ALL, AS USUAL.

 

It was inconceivable to them that he would be taken off based on performance.

 

He was poor last night, but our wide men were too wide, and out holding midfielders were too deep. Wilshere had too much to do and constantly tried to do it all. I like him as a player, but i'm increasingly edging towards the opinion that he's a player with fantastic close ball control, but poor end product. 

[Jarpie]

 

 

Round and round we go....

 

We need a manager that is on side with the players and get McLaren then he is deemed to soft and too friendly with the players, we need a tough manager so we get Capello. Then we fail and he is deemed to strict, that the players need to be able to relax more.

So we get Hodgson who is about as soft a guy as possible but the performances are still poor, now we need a manager with authority and gravitas....

 

The manager really isn't the major problem in all of this.

 

The manager needs to be both. Bobby Robson was great with the players but he had the aura of authority and gravitas. McClaren is soft and he has gravitas of tissue paper, Capello is tough and strict but he didn't seem to get on the side of the players and now Hodgson is neither.

 

The point Trent is making and the point I made is that even if you got your manager that happened to be both a great man-manager with an aura of authority about him, England would still fail. Because they don't have the players at the moment.

And with the way they treat their U21 setup and the way they coach their youth and the money in the Premier League bringing in a disproportionate amount of foreigners restricting the opportunities of the young English players, it isn't likely to change any time soon. I hear they're looking at ways to re-introduce a cap on foreign players in the Premier League; which will need to be implemented with the help of the EU. That would be a big help.

 

 

You might be right. I'm not sure would cap help as young english players are still worse than what's coming on another countries. As far as I've gathered, the problem is sub-standard coaching they get in youths teams. The fix needs to come at the very bottom of the problem and as some other people have said, the lack of the coaches is big problem.

 

But it's not only that, but english youth coaches seem to be incapable of coaching flair and/or skillful players.

[colhint]

I think the problem is two fold

 

1 being that we have so few coaches 

 

2 English players don't play abroad. So in the German, Italian, Dutch teams for example, there players will certainly be playing in Different countries. All the England team play in England. So it wouldn't really matter if we only had 65% English players in the prem if there were others playing abroad. I think someone said there were only about 70 English players playing in the Prem in the Last match before the internationals. I bet there were not many more Italians playing in Seria A. However I'll bet there were loads more Italians playing top flight football in Europe compared to English.

[villa4europe]

in before someone else says Italy at the euros had an all serie A team...

 

fwiw I agree, think a large problem we have is the belief that the prem = the worlds best league, rooney / gerrard / terry etc = the prems best players therefore they must automatically be some of the best players in the world, the penny never seems to drop that 9/10 leagues and international football is played very differently to what we see every Saturday, gerrards style of run / shoot / pass / kick people at 100mph, roy of the rovers "premier league" football for example IMO has never suited international football

 

the biggest problem being foreigners come here such as mata, fabregas, Ronaldo etc and become better players from it, we stay here and get stuck in our (unsuccessful) ways

[mjmooney]

I think we should return to the 1930s policy of not taking part in international tournaments.

 

We invented football anyway, but if Johnny Foreigner wants to spoil it by unsportingly beating us...

[Big_John_10]

I think we need to take a similar approach to how we currently have done things.

Lambert buys players but he doesn't just care about ability, attitude is also a very important factor. I think we need to start picking the right players.

Also forget all this stuff about changing grass roots football and having more coaches to work with young players. Why don't we try picking players on form for each England game. Why do we keep picking the same players that fail to deliver time and time again.

Ashley young is a prime example. In club football if you're out of form or struggling from an injury you will be replaced. Yet in international football we ignore English players who are playing well and select the same ones regardless of form or fitness.

A club manager would pick the best 11 to win the upcoming game. Why don't we do this at international level?

[mjmooney]

 

In club football if you're out of form or struggling from an injury you will be replaced. Yet in international football we ignore English players who are playing well and select the same ones regardless of form or fitness.

 

Note to RoI: Martin O'Neill....

[PaulC]

English national team isn't THAT bad that they couldn't get into semis or even finale in Euros or World Cup. The differences between the top countries are not that big, what makes the difference is the mentality and psyche of the players. Because players are not gonna get to train a lot together and practice tactics and strategies enough, national team manager needs to be someone who can get the players to play with freedom and forget the pressure put on them by FA and the public.

 

No wonder players are reluctant to play for national team when they know they're not gonna enjoy the experience, for whatever reason. Part of the reason is probably that they're so afraid of the failure that it affects their performance as they know they're gonna get shit flung at them, and Hodgson's tactics doesn't certainly help it.

 

First step would be to get a manager who's much more "bubbly" than the couple last ones as it could then catch onto the players too, but that's not enough though. The problems of the national team can't be fixed quickly, just look at our team - it took 8-9 months from Lambert to (seemingly) get things click on and it'd certainly take longer from national team.

 

Manager with enough authority and gravitas could deal with the egos in the dressing room, you don't think the star players in teams like Spain have big egos? Their manager managed to get good team spirit into the team, can't see why right manager couldn't get the same into english players.

 

Really even the golden generation couldn't do that. When we last got to a semi-final of world cup we had some quality players in Gazza, Platt, Linekar and Beardsley. This lot including Gerrard and Lampard are no-where near as good despite what the media tell us.

[PaulC]

 

 

I don't agree that they were that good ever. What have they done when it comes to the major competiions? Rooney was good in 2004 euro I think. Lampard and Gerrard wil probably go down as better England players than David Platt which in fact is a nonsense but Platt did more with a lot less caps than either of those two have done. Wilshere has had so many injuries, I don't know if he's going to be good enough but its harsh to write him off already.

 

 

Well it is difficult to define what "that good" actually means so its a bit of difficult one to argue. I don't though personally think that a player should be defined by the performances for England alone or by the collective performance of the team they play in during Euro's or World Cup's. There are just too many other factors.

 

Take Paul Scholes for instance, he never really achieved anything for England, he was wasted by successive managers and eventually walked away yet he is one of the finest players this country has ever produced.

 

As for Wilshire, you can't discount the injuries or that he continues to get them. I'm not so much writing him off as just saying I don't think he is anywhere near as good as the media would have us believe.

 

 

True but this is the England thread so I am judging them on how they have performed for England. Can you honestly say they have been great international players? Club players yes!

[colhint]

in before someone else says Italy at the euros had an all serie A team...

 

fwiw I agree, think a large problem we have is the belief that the prem = the worlds best league, rooney / gerrard / terry etc = the prems best players therefore they must automatically be some of the best players in the world, the penny never seems to drop that 9/10 leagues and international football is played very differently to what we see every Saturday, gerrards style of run / shoot / pass / kick people at 100mph, roy of the rovers "premier league" football for example IMO has never suited international football

 

the biggest problem being foreigners come here such as mata, fabregas, Ronaldo etc and become better players from it, we stay here and get stuck in our (unsuccessful) ways

 

 

But thats not what I said though. I said there were a lot more Italians playing top flight

[LondonLax]

Well BOF, the way I see it, the Premier League can virtually be considered an "international league" where players from all over the planet are attracted to play for the money on offer. If you don't actually think of it as an English league then you can understand where I am coming from.

Then the top 'English' league would be the Championship which is on a par with the top leagues in Belgium, Croatia, Portugal and not far off the Netherlands or even the French league from a few years back.

If those countries can have weak national leagues plus a sprinkling of top players who play in the 'international premier league' than England should also be able to have a player breeding ground in the Championship with a sprinkling of top players in the PL. (Scotland should be able to do the same, their league is similar to Croatia's as is their population).

The main problem lies with the lack of talent being produced at 16-18 years old in my opinion. Though I can also agree that a talented English player might get spotted earlier and parked on a PL bench rather than continue to play in the Championship like Zaha or Sinclair I suppose.

[BOF]

Well BOF, the way I see it, the Premier League can virtually be considered an "international league" where players from all over the planet are attracted to play for the money on offer. If you don't actually think of it as an English league then you can understand where I am coming from.

Yes but in a discussion about why English players are not coming through in the English league, you're effectively agreeing with me by calling it an international league. It IS one and that's what's impeding the English.

[Jimzk5]

So a few match reports seem to be saying that a draw was a good result despite the performance but had Hodgson got the players he wanted it would have been better.

Does anyone else think having Carroll and welbeck starting over Lambert and Milner would have made a difference last night?

balls would it.

[PaulC]

So a few match reports seem to be saying that a draw was a good result despite the performance but had Hodgson got the players he wanted it would have been better.

Does anyone else think having Carroll and welbeck starting over Lambert and Milner would have made a difference last night?

balls would it.

 

Don't know they have to get the ball to them and the inability of the midfield to make a pass makes me think it would have made no difference at all

[jimmygreaves]

Has Walcott had much stick? He was the very definition of a dumb footballer last night. If he has to think he falls apart. Didn't make one decent footballing decision all match. Always not only the wrong pass but in most cases the worst pass.

Edited September 11, 2013 by jimmygreaves

[ArteSuave]

Dour 0-0 draw incoming, with Hodgson coming out with McLeish-esque comments after the game.

Burn the witch.

[Mantis]

 The saddest thing about my prediction is that I didn't bet on it.

 

I don't understand this idea that it is foreign players in the premier league causing the issue.

The Belgium top flight is championship standard (at best) so their best players also have to break into a tough premier league yet they manage it because they have talented youngsters coming through.

If England had a good group of young players coming up they would get bought but the simple fact is that the talent isn't there.

Agreed. If anything it's beneficial to the English game as it gives young English players more competition.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Mantis