International General England thread

[turnbull]

A fishing rod and a hat. Useful.

[PaulC]

I'm struggling to understand why anyone cares about the England team any more.

 

Those running it from the FA never do anything to try and sort out or real issues and instead make the right noises while feathering their own nests and in reality changing nothing. It is beyond laughable that the FA think part of the solution to our problems is ensuring we have an English coach.

What can Hodgson or any England manager do about the fact we have an ever decreasing pool of questionable talent to pick from? Nothing is the answer. The real problems are at the grass roots of the game, the comparison between England and Spain of the number of qualified coaches in each country really demonstrates the real issue and just how deep rooted the problems are.

 

Build the facility in Burton is a step in the right direction but I doubt it will do anything to really change the face of English football.

 

Neither will the mutterings of a former journalist given the keys to the FA sweetshop, talking about the ills of the modern game and the greed of the PL he had a hand in creating, who claims nobody could have seen the negative impact its creation would have. Yes they bloody could, people were talking about this very problem back in 1992 and saying it would have this very impact on the national side.

 

Then you have the team themselves, half the players seemingly don't give a monkeys about playing for England and most the time see it as something of an inconvenience  until an actual tournament comes around.

 

When it does they are too knackered and too pre-occupied with their club destination for the following season, their book deal, their wag or their hair plugins to actually perform.

 

Every qualification is the same, we get there in the end by hook or by crook and expectations go through the roof until we arrive somewhere and realise we are about as good as the local piss water beer served up to the real fans most of whom can't get tickets because they've all been given to McDonalds.

 

We aren't going to win anything now or in the future, we aren't going to sort out the problems in our game and in a few years time we will be picking the England squad out of the arse end of the PL or the Championship.

 

We are a second rate international team these days and those who could do something about it aren't about to so simply getting to Euro's or WC's is about the best we can hope for and should really be the expectation.

 

That is why I'm not even bothered if we qualify or not.

 

Yep the media build our players up to be better than what they are. Fact is Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are not that good. They look good in club football but put them in a team with average footballers  like the national team then that shows them up for what they really are. I know people on here gave Wilshere but at least hes nearer 20 than 40 and I'd rather us build a midfield around him and maybe Delph than Gerrard and Lampard who have failed in every major competitions finals. 

[SikhInTrinity]

Didi Hamann made a great point, the manager sole focus is picking a team based on names rather than an actual team to try and win a game. How Wilshire was ahead of Carrick yesterday I will never know. Walcott is not a winger and never will be, he's fast and thats about it.

[TrentVilla]

Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard were that good, they aren't that good now and the problem is we just aren't producing players like them or like those of their generation and there is no better example of that than Jack Wilshire.

 

Jack Wilshire is a distinctly average midfielder by PL standards let alone international standards, the hype around him is entirely unjustified and largely the result of the fact that he a) players for Arsenal and well there isn't anyone else to hype up.

 

He is made of plastic and has missed so much football that much of the media have seemingly failed to notice the fact he isn't actually that good.

 

If we are going to build an England side around Wilshire than the future really isn't bright it is a shitty brown colour like the water you get when you drain your radiator.

[SikhInTrinity]

What gets me is the amount of unwarranted stick Milner gets, he's called a hardworking player, a squad filler, a utility man. I work with this Arsenal fan who bangs on about their loveable Jack, I shown him Milner's goal against Sunderland, I said come back to me when Wilshire scores one of these.

[PaulC]

Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard were that good, they aren't that good now and the problem is we just aren't producing players like them or like those of their generation and there is no better example of that than Jack Wilshire.

 

Jack Wilshire is a distinctly average midfielder by PL standards let alone international standards, the hype around him is entirely unjustified and largely the result of the fact that he a) players for Arsenal and well there isn't anyone else to hype up.

 

He is made of plastic and has missed so much football that much of the media have seemingly failed to notice the fact he isn't actually that good.

 

If we are going to build an England side around Wilshire than the future really isn't bright it is a shitty brown colour like the water you get when you drain your radiator.

 

I don't agree that they were that good ever. What have they done when it comes to the major competiions? Rooney was good in 2004 euro I think. Lampard and Gerrard wil probably go down as better England players than David Platt which in fact is a nonsense but Platt did more with a lot less caps than either of those two have done. Wilshere has had so many injuries, I don't know if he's going to be good enough but its harsh to write him off already.

[Swerbs]

What gets me is the amount of unwarranted stick Milner gets, he's called a hardworking player, a squad filler, a utility man. I work with this Arsenal fan who bangs on about their loveable Jack, I shown him Milner's goal against Sunderland, I said come back to me when Wilshire scores one of these.

Milner isn't that good though, he was brilliant for us at club level in the middle but at a higher level he's not great.

[PaulC]

What gets me is the amount of unwarranted stick Milner gets, he's called a hardworking player, a squad filler, a utility man. I work with this Arsenal fan who bangs on about their loveable Jack, I shown him Milner's goal against Sunderland, I said come back to me when Wilshire scores one of these.

 

Milner is better in central midfield isn't he. He is hard working but lacks pace but I thought he was one of Englands better players last night.

[TrentVilla]

 

I don't agree that they were that good ever. What have they done when it comes to the major competiions? Rooney was good in 2004 euro I think. Lampard and Gerrard wil probably go down as better England players than David Platt which in fact is a nonsense but Platt did more with a lot less caps than either of those two have done. Wilshere has had so many injuries, I don't know if he's going to be good enough but its harsh to write him off already.

 

 

Well it is difficult to define what "that good" actually means so its a bit of difficult one to argue. I don't though personally think that a player should be defined by the performances for England alone or by the collective performance of the team they play in during Euro's or World Cup's. There are just too many other factors.

 

Take Paul Scholes for instance, he never really achieved anything for England, he was wasted by successive managers and eventually walked away yet he is one of the finest players this country has ever produced.

 

As for Wilshire, you can't discount the injuries or that he continues to get them. I'm not so much writing him off as just saying I don't think he is anywhere near as good as the media would have us believe.

[Jarpie]

English national team isn't THAT bad that they couldn't get into semis or even finale in Euros or World Cup. The differences between the top countries are not that big, what makes the difference is the mentality and psyche of the players. Because players are not gonna get to train a lot together and practice tactics and strategies enough, national team manager needs to be someone who can get the players to play with freedom and forget the pressure put on them by FA and the public.

 

No wonder players are reluctant to play for national team when they know they're not gonna enjoy the experience, for whatever reason. Part of the reason is probably that they're so afraid of the failure that it affects their performance as they know they're gonna get shit flung at them, and Hodgson's tactics doesn't certainly help it.

 

First step would be to get a manager who's much more "bubbly" than the couple last ones as it could then catch onto the players too, but that's not enough though. The problems of the national team can't be fixed quickly, just look at our team - it took 8-9 months from Lambert to (seemingly) get things click on and it'd certainly take longer from national team.

 

Manager with enough authority and gravitas could deal with the egos in the dressing room, you don't think the star players in teams like Spain have big egos? Their manager managed to get good team spirit into the team, can't see why right manager couldn't get the same into english players.

[TrentVilla]

 

Manager with enough authority and gravitas could deal with the egos in the dressing room, you don't think the star players in teams like Spain have big egos? Their manager managed to get good team spirit into the team, can't see why right manager couldn't get the same into english players.

 

 

Round and round we go....

 

We need a manager that is on side with the players and get McLaren then he is deemed to soft and too friendly with the players, we need a tough manager so we get Capello. Then we fail and he is deemed to strict, that the players need to be able to relax more.

So we get Hodgson who is about as soft a guy as possible but the performances are still poor, now we need a manager with authority and gravitas....

 

The manager really isn't the major problem in all of this.

[rjw63]

 

 

As for Wilshire, you can't discount the injuries or that he continues to get them. I'm not so much writing him off as just saying I don't think he is anywhere near as good as the media would have us believe.

 

He's a petulant billy-big-time rocket polisher

[BOF]

English national team isn't THAT bad that they couldn't get into semis or even finale in Euros or World Cup. The differences between the top countries are not that big, what makes the difference is the mentality and psyche of the players. Because players are not gonna get to train a lot together and practice tactics and strategies enough, national team manager needs to be someone who can get the players to play with freedom and forget the pressure put on them by FA and the public.

I think you're trying to find excuses for them to be honest, Jarpie. The last time England got to the last 4 of a world cup was 23 years ago. They didn't do badly in the Euros that they hosted either, 17 years ago. And all international players train in the same irregular way as everyone else does. They all face the same difficulties as other countries. The simple fact of the matter is that at the moment, for whatever reason, England players are not half as good as a lot of people (media, some fans) think they are. It's akin to the way Liverpool fans cling to the belief that they're still a top side. I can understand the desire to do so as a fan. For a football fan there's little worse than having to admit that your team are maybe not as relevant as they once were. It doesn't change the reality of it though.

[Mantis]

Except that most England fans accept that we're not that great a team. Honestly, the real myth is not that the England team are world class but that we think they are.

[BOF]

Not even 'world class' though Mantis. What I mean is even the posts like the one above where the attitude is "we should be going to places like this and doing X, Y & Z to these teams". No, you really shouldn't. There's still a slight attitude correction that needs to happen even from where many are at the moment.

[Jarpie]

 

English national team isn't THAT bad that they couldn't get into semis or even finale in Euros or World Cup. The differences between the top countries are not that big, what makes the difference is the mentality and psyche of the players. Because players are not gonna get to train a lot together and practice tactics and strategies enough, national team manager needs to be someone who can get the players to play with freedom and forget the pressure put on them by FA and the public.

I think you're trying to find excuses for them to be honest, Jarpie. The last time England got to the last 4 of a world cup was 23 years ago. They didn't do badly in the Euros that they hosted either, 17 years ago. And all international players train in the same irregular way as everyone else does. They all face the same difficulties as other countries. The simple fact of the matter is that at the moment, for whatever reason, England players are not half as good as a lot of people (media, some fans) think they are. It's akin to the way Liverpool fans cling to the belief that they're still a top side. I can understand the desire to do so as a fan. For a football fan there's little worse than having to admit that your team are maybe not as relevant as they once were. It doesn't change the reality of it though.

 

 

Maybe I am. I know I've talked about finnish sports in the past but english national team in football is somewhat similar with finnish national team in ice hockey, both have (or had) very good teams but screwed up somehow in important games. In both cases it seems to be the underlying mental issues on players knowing how to win. The last time Finland won the ice hockey world championship, there weren't any expectations for them to win and they had a manager who's great at man managing who got them to play with freedom, especially on important games.

 

 

 

 

Manager with enough authority and gravitas could deal with the egos in the dressing room, you don't think the star players in teams like Spain have big egos? Their manager managed to get good team spirit into the team, can't see why right manager couldn't get the same into english players.

 

 

Round and round we go....

 

We need a manager that is on side with the players and get McLaren then he is deemed to soft and too friendly with the players, we need a tough manager so we get Capello. Then we fail and he is deemed to strict, that the players need to be able to relax more.

So we get Hodgson who is about as soft a guy as possible but the performances are still poor, now we need a manager with authority and gravitas....

 

The manager really isn't the major problem in all of this.

 

 

The manager needs to be both. Bobby Robson was great with the players but he had the aura of authority and gravitas. McClaren is soft and he has gravitas of tissue paper, Capello is tough and strict but he didn't seem to get on the side of the players and now Hodgson is neither.

[BOF]

Round and round we go....

 

We need a manager that is on side with the players and get McLaren then he is deemed to soft and too friendly with the players, we need a tough manager so we get Capello. Then we fail and he is deemed to strict, that the players need to be able to relax more.

So we get Hodgson who is about as soft a guy as possible but the performances are still poor, now we need a manager with authority and gravitas....

 

The manager really isn't the major problem in all of this.

 

The manager needs to be both. Bobby Robson was great with the players but he had the aura of authority and gravitas. McClaren is soft and he has gravitas of tissue paper, Capello is tough and strict but he didn't seem to get on the side of the players and now Hodgson is neither.

The point Trent is making and the point I made is that even if you got your manager that happened to be both a great man-manager with an aura of authority about him, England would still fail. Because they don't have the players at the moment.

And with the way they treat their U21 setup and the way they coach their youth and the money in the Premier League bringing in a disproportionate amount of foreigners restricting the opportunities of the young English players, it isn't likely to change any time soon. I hear they're looking at ways to re-introduce a cap on foreign players in the Premier League; which will need to be implemented with the help of the EU. That would be a big help.

[LondonLax]

I don't understand this idea that it is foreign players in the premier league causing the issue.

The Belgium top flight is championship standard (at best) so their best players also have to break into a tough premier league yet they manage it because they have talented youngsters coming through.

If England had a good group of young players coming up they would get bought but the simple fact is that the talent isn't there.

[mjmooney]

Doesn't really help when we don't really have a squad full of likeable characters. So many bad attitudes in there.

 

You'd be hard-pressed to find eleven likeable (English) characters in the Premier League.

 

And if you did, they'd make a poor football team.

[Shillzz]

 

 

Round and round we go....

 

We need a manager that is on side with the players and get McLaren then he is deemed to soft and too friendly with the players, we need a tough manager so we get Capello. Then we fail and he is deemed to strict, that the players need to be able to relax more.

So we get Hodgson who is about as soft a guy as possible but the performances are still poor, now we need a manager with authority and gravitas....

 

The manager really isn't the major problem in all of this.

 

The manager needs to be both. Bobby Robson was great with the players but he had the aura of authority and gravitas. McClaren is soft and he has gravitas of tissue paper, Capello is tough and strict but he didn't seem to get on the side of the players and now Hodgson is neither.

 

The point Trent is making and the point I made is that even if you got your manager that happened to be both a great man-manager with an aura of authority about him, England would still fail. Because they don't have the players at the moment.

And with the way they treat their U21 setup and the way they coach their youth and the money in the Premier League bringing in a disproportionate amount of foreigners restricting the opportunities of the young English players, it isn't likely to change any time soon. I hear they're looking at ways to re-introduce a cap on foreign players in the Premier League; which will need to be implemented with the help of the EU. That would be a big help.

 

 

We really do need to treat the U21 tournaments with a bit more respect. It would be far more beneficial for the future of English football if Wilshere, Oxlaide Chamberlain, Barkeley and Townsend were all playing together on a regular basis for the U21s. Instead, they get hoisted into the senior team at the first available opportunity and don't get given the chance to learn to play together.