TheDon Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 So who did collapse the wave function of the universe? BTW, I agree completely. There is no free will. Decisions are made on the basis of chemical changes in the brain in response to stimuli. The brain is a chaotic system and therefore incredibly hard to model, but the illusion of free will is simply a by product of chemical reactions. Once people accept this life gets a lot easier. There's no need to dwell on the past and think about what you might have done differently when you accept the simple fact that you couldn't possibly have done any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 There's no need to dwell on the past and think about what you might have done differently when you accept the simple fact that you couldn't possibly have done any different. But regret and shame are two of my favourite emotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 There's no need to dwell on the past and think about what you might have done differently when you accept the simple fact that you couldn't possibly have done any different. But regret and shame are two of my favourite emotions. You can still have them, but just in a "I can't believe I did that, DAMN YOU DETERMINISM!" way. It wasn't your fault you got drunk and slept with a fatty, it was simply the only thing you could have possibly done given the circumstances (I may or may not have told myself that on numerous occasions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 12, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted May 12, 2012 Well the thread's finally delivered some intelligent design crackpottery so I guess it's on some level succeeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted May 13, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2012 So who did collapse the wave function of the universe? BTW, I agree completely. There is no free will. Decisions are made on the basis of chemical changes in the brain in response to stimuli. The brain is a chaotic system and therefore incredibly hard to model, but the illusion of free will is simply a by product of chemical reactions. Once people accept this life gets a lot easier. There's no need to dwell on the past and think about what you might have done differently when you accept the simple fact that you couldn't possibly have done any different. I agree there is no free will - but for completely different reasons. However, simplifying everything down to predetermined responses to chemical stimuli never diminishes responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 As far as I am concerned there is no god, and if there is then he is as thick as AM. My reasonong for this ( one of my reasons ) is Hitler. He was the cause of millions of lives, yet there were about 24 assination attempts on him BEFORE the second world war started.If there really is a god then sureley he would have made at least one attempt successful and saved millions of lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted May 13, 2012 Administrator Share Posted May 13, 2012 As far as I am concerned there is no god, and if there is then he is as thick as AM. My reasonong for this ( one of my reasons ) is Hitler. He was the cause of millions of lives, yet there were about 24 assination attempts on him BEFORE the second world war started.If there really is a god then sureley he would have made at least one attempt successful and saved millions of lives. Hitler was raised Catholic. If your statistic is true, perhaps the failed attempts served to reinforce his superstitious beliefs that he was doing god's will, but more dangerously, caused others to believe it too. Allowing people to be trained not to think for themselves from a young age is really dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted May 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted May 13, 2012 Allowing people to be trained not to think for themselves from a young age is really dangerous. Exactly why I dislike organised religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I reckon a lot of chaps just don't like to think for themselves, so they'll actively seek out someone to do it for them. Having a secular education for all children would allow more people to think for themselves, but there will always be those who just want an easy answer. But it's a choice they should be free to make when they are old enough, not forced into at a young age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted May 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted May 13, 2012 But it's a choice they should be free to make when they are old enough, not forced into at a young age. Agreed. So few people are find religion for themselves, most have it spoon fed to them quite literally as children. It isn't belief its upbringing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted May 13, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2012 As far as I am concerned there is no god, and if there is then he is as thick as AM. My reasonong for this ( one of my reasons ) is Hitler. He was the cause of millions of lives, yet there were about 24 assination attempts on him BEFORE the second world war started.If there really is a god then sureley he would have made at least one attempt successful and saved millions of lives. It's a good point and one that has been raised many times. While Hitler is a good example of tragedy and loss, sadly it is only one of many. So why does God allow this to happen? Why does he not step in and make everything good? In fact, why do we die at all? It's hard to answer this question in something that isn't "TL;DR", but I'll give it a go. - Everything was good in the beginning - Mankind decided that they knew better and rejected God's rule. - Man, being less than perfect and essentially selfish, stuffed everything up. The result of this is the suffering we see today - including death. - God, being perfect and just, must punish every rebellion. He chose to punish his only Son, Jesus, rather than mankind. - Jesus death acts as a substitutionary death for those who believe in him, so their punishment is paid in full. Their undeserved reward is the situation you allude to: No more death, suffering, pain etc - but in heaven, not here. - Those who continue to reject him (and, ergo Jesus' substitutionary death) continue to wear the punishment for their wrongdoings. Their destiny is torment in hell. That's about as succinct as I can make it. I hope this answers your question, though I suspect it just raises more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 As far as I am concerned there is no god, and if there is then he is as thick as AM. My reasonong for this ( one of my reasons ) is Hitler. He was the cause of millions of lives, yet there were about 24 assination attempts on him BEFORE the second world war started.If there really is a god then sureley he would have made at least one attempt successful and saved millions of lives. Hitler was raised Catholic. If your statistic is true, perhaps the failed attempts served to reinforce his superstitious beliefs that he was doing god's will, but more dangerously, caused others to believe it too. Allowing people to be trained not to think for themselves from a young age is really dangerous. Yeah, the stats I mentioned are true.It should not be too hard to confirm. As for the failed attempts, ? surely if there really is a god then he would have made sure that at least one attempt succeded and therefore save millions of lives of soldiers on both sides and civilians ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted May 13, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2012 As far as I am concerned there is no god, and if there is then he is as thick as AM. My reasonong for this ( one of my reasons ) is Hitler. He was the cause of millions of lives, yet there were about 24 assination attempts on him BEFORE the second world war started.If there really is a god then sureley he would have made at least one attempt successful and saved millions of lives. It's a good point and one that has been raised many times. While Hitler is a good example of tragedy and loss, sadly it is only one of many. So why does God allow this to happen? Why does he not step in and make everything good? In fact, why do we die at all? It's hard to answer this question in something that isn't "TL;DR", but I'll give it a go. - Everything was good in the beginning - Mankind decided that they knew better and rejected God's rule. - Man, being less than perfect and essentially selfish, stuffed everything up. The result of this is the suffering we see today - including death. - God, being perfect and just, must punish every rebellion. He chose to punish his only Son, Jesus, rather than mankind. - Jesus death acts as a substitutionary death for those who believe in him, so their punishment is paid in full. Their undeserved reward is the situation you allude to: No more death, suffering, pain etc - but in heaven, not here. - Those who continue to reject him (and, ergo Jesus' substitutionary death) continue to wear the punishment for their wrongdoings. Their destiny is torment in hell. That's about as succinct as I can make it. I hope this answers your question, though I suspect it just raises more.Succinct? It makes about as much sense as a random word generator. But, OK, I'll play. When God made man with free will, did he know in advance what was going to happen? If so, why bother? If not, then he wasn't omniscient, was he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Allowing people to be trained not to think for themselves from a young age is really dangerous. What differentiates thinking for oneself from free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted May 13, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2012 Succinct? It makes about as much sense as a random word generator. But, OK, I'll play. When God made man with free will, did he know in advance what was going to happen? If so, why bother? If not, then he wasn't omniscient, was he? Excellent question! First up - you'll notice I never mentioned free will. In fact, I saidin an earlier post on the previous page that there is no such thing. So did God know what was going to happen? Yes. Otherwise he would not be omniscient. Furthermore, he planned to punish his own Son for what was going to happen. So if God knew this was going to happen, why bother? The bible does not give us a one line answer for this. What we can glean is that God made us to glorify himself, we are held accountable for our rebellion and that he chose to punish his Son to show us his love and his justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 OVF, a couple of honest, un-loaded questions, since you seem(/ed) like a sensible chap: Are you playing the apologist, or do you actually believe this stuff? And what is "TL;DR"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 So its ok to let one guy live, even if it means the death of MILLIONS ???? God might be able to do lots of things but he needs to study up on what the word justice means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 13, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted May 13, 2012 And what is "TL;DR"? Too Long; Didn't Read. It's used to prefix summaries for people with the concentration levels of a chaffinch. I would also like to know if ozvillafan is a devils advocate here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwivillan Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Shit. I came on here because I misread off the front page this as the all-purpose relegation thread. Which religion is getting relegated this season? I know some are less popular but there's always talk of being bought out by a Qatari outfit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 As far as I am concerned there is no god, and if there is then he is as thick as AM. My reasonong for this ( one of my reasons ) is Hitler. He was the cause of millions of lives, yet there were about 24 assination attempts on him BEFORE the second world war started.If there really is a god then sureley he would have made at least one attempt successful and saved millions of lives. It's a good point and one that has been raised many times. While Hitler is a good example of tragedy and loss, sadly it is only one of many. So why does God allow this to happen? Why does he not step in and make everything good? In fact, why do we die at all? It's hard to answer this question in something that isn't "TL;DR", but I'll give it a go. - Everything was good in the beginning - Mankind decided that they knew better and rejected God's rule. - Man, being less than perfect and essentially selfish, stuffed everything up. The result of this is the suffering we see today - including death. - God, being perfect and just, must punish every rebellion. He chose to punish his only Son, Jesus, rather than mankind. - Jesus death acts as a substitutionary death for those who believe in him, so their punishment is paid in full. Their undeserved reward is the situation you allude to: No more death, suffering, pain etc - but in heaven, not here. - Those who continue to reject him (and, ergo Jesus' substitutionary death) continue to wear the punishment for their wrongdoings. Their destiny is torment in hell. That's about as succinct as I can make it. I hope this answers your question, though I suspect it just raises more. And that's an example of a loving god? Eternal damnation for not following his rules? Most of my family and friends are non-believers, so I'm quite happy not ending up in a heaven ruled by a vain, ego-maniac, as even though they're all good people, they won't be going according to the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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