All-Purpose Religion Thread

[JulieB]

No, fair enough.

To answer the question: most of those religions originated thousands of years ago. Human beings have always had curiosity and an enquiring mind - it was arguably (after the opposable thumb) the single most advantageous evolutionary development we had.

At that stage of human history, we had very little information to work with - we hadn't developed the technologies or the scientific method that would come much later, with the Renaissance.

So we speculated, we couldn't do much else.

Now combine that with fear. Life then (as it is now for many) was nasty, brutish and short. We knew we would die, and it scared us.

What could be more natural than to fantasise a life after death? "A consummation devoutly to be wished" as Hamlet put it.

And those fears persist - particularly in cultures with low levels of education. The religions continue to provide a comfort blanket - not just for the eternal life fantasy, but as a social structure, a bonding tool.

The odd exception is the apparently educated USA, where (unlike much of Europe), superstition persists. There are some interesting theories about why this should be so, but I'll save that for another post.

There you go, Julie, no piss taking involved.

Surely though Mike there is a remarkable similarity to be found in those Ancient belief systems around the globe.

Nimrod, Semiramis & Tammuz in Sumeria....became Isis, Horus & Isis in Ancient Egypt...etc etc etc

- ALL worshipping the Sun & the Moon & ancestors.

- ALL obsessed with Gold & it's use in Worship. Sumerian, Egyptian, South American, India, China...

- ALL obsessed with the afterlife - spending much resources and time & effort into building tombs with equipment & personell to

equip them for the afterlife.

- Very often placing these sacred places high up on hills & moutains - or building artifical high places such as Ziggurats or Pyramids etc.

- Very often containing figures with wings or birdmen.

Even little clues point to a global system of Sun worship where human sacrifices very often took place ....for instance look at the hands & where they are positioned on the statues that have just been dug up at Gobekli Tepe....now look at the exact same design & positioning of hands on the Moi statues on Easter Island . Compare these to statues found in South America & China. The more artifacts that are being dug up across the globe, the more there appears to be a common thread.

Easter Island statues - supposedly 6,000 years old & statues of ancestors

Gobekli Tepe pillars of ancestors - supposedly 12,000 years old.

Now compare the Birdmen of Easter island with the Birdmen of Gobekli Tepe and then compare that with the depiction of Horus & birdmen to be found in Suemeria, Egypt & pre Columbian civilisation.

There does appear to be a common root to these pagan beleif systems which have reached out into almost all of our modern day religons.

If you look at the National Geographic page on Gobekli Tepe

what does it say?,...............

The Birth of Religion

We used to think agriculture gave rise to cities and later to writing, art, and religion. Now the world’s oldest temple suggests the urge to worship sparked civilization.

[mjmooney]

They were all humans. They made statues that looked like big humans.

Hardly surprising.

But what are you suggesting? That God had revealed himself to all these tribes? That all religions are the same?

If so, is that still the case? If so, why be a JW? You may as well go for one of the more mainstream ones like Islam.

[JulieB]

But what are you suggesting?

That an ANTI GOD - PAGAN worship system was founded in ancient times across the globe. Whose beleif systems were in total opposition to those of the God of the Bible.

As the Nat Geo page states about Gobekli Tepe & it being supposedly 12,000 years old.

The Birth of Religion

We used to think agriculture gave rise to cities and later to writing, art, and religion. Now the world’s oldest temple suggests the urge to worship sparked civilization.

[limpid]

How are those Gobleki pillars twice as old as the biblical earth?

[legov]

Pagan, Bible.

Hmm, ironies ironies.

Edit: Addendum - highly recommend "Guns Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. The "rise of civilisation" was a topic much discussed about in the book, and in one of the chapters Diamond writes about how areas with extremely abundant wild food resources can support chiefdoms with populations of tens of thousands of people each, without any substantial agriculture taking place. IINM he mentioned that this prehistorically happened in parts of Scandinavia and North America.

In my opinion, this is the best explanation for the development of sites like Göbekli Tepe.

[Chindie]

I hope someone can come torpedo this latest revelation. A bit like Sie, and others, waged a blitzkrieg on the 'OMG THE FLOOD HAPPENED! IT'S IN CHINESE LETTERS! LOOK!' stuff last year, and left it stone dead with facts.

Rather like Mike, being a rational thinking human being and allergic to 'Ooga booga', I look at these revelations and immediately come to a conclusion that most people are already aware of. People are, and always have been, quite quite similar. It is quite likely that, seeing 'wonders' to a primitive people, like birds being able to fly, or the sun - the thing that defines their world, they would choose to think they are special. And so worship them. It isn't a surprise that these things are similar world wide.

But of course, ti could be that they were all touched by a being that doesn't exist and chose to rebel against it.

Incidentally, Pagan worship makes rather more sense on a pure level of understanding for a primitive people than any rubbish in the Bible. IT rather lacks dogma. 'The sun, it brings light! An enormous FIRE in the SKY that dominates us! Lets worship it!'. 'The River, mighty, bringing water, and sometimes death! It is powerful. We should worship it'. Aaaand so on.

[legov]

A bit like Sie, and others, waged a blitzkrieg on the 'OMG THE FLOOD HAPPENED! IT'S IN CHINESE LETTERS! LOOK!' stuff last year, and left it stone dead with facts

Hey Chindie, mind telling me the thread title? I'd love to give it a read

[Chindie]

It may have pruned by now, or it is in one of the larger all encompasing threads... I'll have a mooch.

[BOF]

allergic to 'Ooga booga'

Like it.

[mjmooney]

(1) Think up a crackpot theory.

(2) Desperately search around for some supposed gap or inconsistency in the scientific record, that can be distorted to (apparently) 'prove' said crackpot theory.

It ain't the way to go, kids.

[Chindie]

Yeah I think it's gone. Long story short, a debate on religion as per lead to the believers bringing out the 'latest research big guns' and tried to make us run down the local church by convincing us that the flood, the ark one, definitely happened.

The proof? IIRC it went like this...

- Cultures the world over have 'enormous devastating end of the world-esque' flood myths. So Noah happened

- People think they know where the remants of the ark are. So Noah happened

- A certain Chinese letter/word symbol (I'm not up on how Chinese script works exactly, anyway) features symbols that put together 'flood' and 'boat' and what not, so it's obvious the Chinese knew about this Noah thing and left a record in their writing, for all time. So Noah, Noah happened.

Then we all went 'You're having a laugh right' and ripped the lot to shreds, but Sie and acouple of other chaps took the Chinese thing to heart and destroyed it - it's a really old myth, and it doesn't actually say anything of the sort in this particular symbol and the only people who believe it does are the ones that a) can't read Chinese, and desperately want to convince the gullible to convert.

It was a fantastic unflinching, unarguable rebuttal and retort to it.

[Chindie]

(1) Think up a crackpot theory.

(2) Desperately search around for some supposed gap or inconsistency in the scientific record, that can be distorted to (apparently) 'prove' said crackpot theory.

It ain't the way to go, kids.

'God of the gaps', really.

Except here we're taking crackpot theory, wedging into where we think we can, adding mumbo, to the jumbo, and going 'Behold, the LORD!'.

It'd be sad if it wasn't so infuriating. Grown men and women. You almost have to laugh.

[legov]

Yeah I think it's gone. Long story short, a debate on religion as per lead to the believers bringing out the 'latest research big guns' and tried to make us run down the local church by convincing us that the flood, the ark one, definitely happened.

The proof? IIRC it went like this...

- Cultures the world over have 'enormous devastating end of the world-esque' flood myths. So Noah happened

- People think they know where the remants of the ark are. So Noah happened

- A certain Chinese letter/word symbol (I'm not up on how Chinese script works exactly, anyway) features symbols that put together 'flood' and 'boat' and what not, so it's obvious the Chinese knew about this Noah thing and left a record in their writing, for all time. So Noah, Noah happened.

Then we all went 'You're having a laugh right' and ripped the lot to shreds, but Sie and acouple of other chaps took the Chinese thing to heart and destroyed it - it's a really old myth, and it doesn't actually say anything of the sort in this particular symbol and the only people who believe it does are the ones that a) can't read Chinese, and desperately want to convince the gullible to convert.

It was a fantastic unflinching, unarguable rebuttal and retort to it.

Oh, that one - I think I read a bit of it.

[mjmooney]

The god of the gaps thing is more of a problem for the wishy-washy, C of E, 'sensible Christian' types to be honest.

Because - in the face of irrefutable logic - they have (to their credit) abandoned one sacred tenet after another, until they are left with... not very much, beyond a let's-be-nice-to-each-other philosophical Christianity (which is kind of where I came in, somewhere upthread). It must be quite unsettling.

The fundies can see this, and have realised that once they give way on the smallest point, the whole tottering edifice collapses. The only recourse in the face of such a threat is to close eyes, plug ears and go 'Ner-ner, I can't hear you'. It's quite sad to watch - as Chindie says - grown men and women making themselves look so downright silly.

[norton65ca]

Julie, if you look at a link I posted about five pages back to OzVillan. it links to an essay on the origins of the Genesis myth and where it originated. It is stolen, shamelessly straight from Babylonian/Assyrian mythology. There is nothing original about the Jewish religion, they borrowed it all from other neighborhood religions.

[Chindie]

Julie, if you look at a link I posted about five pages back to OzVillan. it links to an essay on the origins of the Genesis myth and where it originated. It is stolen, shamelessly straight from Babylonian/Assyrian mythology. There is nothing original about the Jewish religion, they borrowed it all from other neighborhood religions.

I rather suspect she'll already know this and have formulated how this fits in perfectly with Jehovah's mumbo. That or Watchtower had done it already and their word is infallible. Even when they predict the end of the world and get it wrong.

[regular_john]

Even when they predict the end of the world and get it wrong.

...Thirteen times. They're actually in the guinness book of records for being the faith with the highest number of failed formal predictions about the apocalypse. They've since changed their prediction to 'soon'.

[bickster]

Just a post about religions in general - have no wish to enter into a heated debate.

Can you seriously post with a straight face these days? I can only interpret your posts on this topic with very similar opening lines as either

(1) If I say that, they won't have a go at my religion and it'll allow me to put my point across then run away again

or

(2) Posting for Effect

Really, if you don't want to enter into a debate, don't post!

Quite frankly any post that starts with similar lines to that is quite insulting to other posters even at face value, it says I'm going to post something then not interact with the rest of you and in a forum such as this thats an insult to the rest of the contributors, as the debate is what we're here for. Either contribute fully and face the consequences of a reasoned debate or don't bother going in. If you don't think your opinions and beliefs will stand up, I suggest you don't bother instead of of chucking in a mumbo jumbo grenade and running away

[JulieB]

Sighs... ah well I did try.....

[JulieB]

Just a post about religions in general - have no wish to enter into a heated debate.

Can you seriously post with a straight face these days? I can only interpret your posts on this topic with very similar opening lines as either

(1) If I say that, they won't have a go at my religion and it'll allow me to put my point across then run away again

or

(2) Posting for Effect

Really, if you don't want to enter into a debate, don't post!

Quite frankly any post that starts with similar lines to that is quite insulting to other posters even at face value, it says I'm going to post something then not interact with the rest of you and in a forum such as this thats an insult to the rest of the contributors, as the debate is what we're here for. Either contribute fully and face the consequences of a reasoned debate or don't bother going in. If you don't think your opinions and beliefs will stand up, I suggest you don't bother instead of of chucking in a mumbo jumbo grenade and running away

I don't like abuse. I don't dish it out & I don't like it full stop because IMHO

it very often crosses that line and goes over to post on poster, which is against site guidelines, so I thought.

What's the matter...do you insist that a thread on religion is only available to anti -religion posters?!!

As archaeologists are completely re-writing the history books because of Gobekli Tepe & it's religious implications then surely it's entirely relevant to the thread?