All-Purpose Religion Thread

[Risso]

So if God knew this was going to happen, why bother? The bible does not give us a one line answer for this. What we can glean is that God made us to glorify himself, we are held accountable for our rebellion and that he chose to punish his Son to show us his love and his justice.

In other words he's an utter c***. The shiny-eyed lot are welcome to him.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Obligatory Epicurus?

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?”

[mjmooney]

ozvillafan - just stop and think about what you are saying for a minute. Read the posts by norton65ca and legov for proof that it IS possible to drop this nonsense and wake up.

[legov]

Succinct? It makes about as much sense as a random word generator.

But, OK, I'll play.

When God made man with free will, did he know in advance what was going to happen?

If so, why bother?

If not, then he wasn't omniscient, was he?

Excellent question!

First up - you'll notice I never mentioned free will. In fact, I saidin an earlier post on the previous page that there is no such thing.

So did God know what was going to happen? Yes. Otherwise he would not be omniscient.

Furthermore, he planned to punish his own Son for what was going to happen.

So if God knew this was going to happen, why bother? The bible does not give us a one line answer for this. What we can glean is that God made us to glorify himself, we are held accountable for our rebellion and that he chose to punish his Son to show us his love and his justice.

He created Man, knowing full well that they would end up "sinning", yet chooses to condemn them - or at least, a good portion of them - to eternal damnation. Sounds to me like punishing others for your own fuckups.

Can't believe killing himself (it's not really death though if you think about it, it was just a painful 3-day coma) to save just the Christians was the best idea an omnipotent God could come up with. Not only did it require the immediate deaths of a few people (Judas, Jesus himself, etc.), it is also, by numbers alone, an incredibly woeful solution. 2 billion Christians - that's at least 5 billion others left unsaved, not to mention the billions of other poor sods throughout history who died without getting to know the "Good Word," a group that includes people who died before Jesus was even born.

And using humans to glorify oneself....christ.

What an egomaniac.

[ozvillafan]

OVF, a couple of honest, un-loaded questions, since you seem(/ed) like a sensible chap:

Are you playing the apologist, or do you actually believe this stuff?

And what is "TL;DR"?

Not an apologist. I actually believe this stuff.

I assume I'm the only "religious" type responding in this thread. I will do what I can to answer any questions, but I cannot guarantee you will like the answers.

To clarify further: I'm a bible believing christian. I will answer what I know from the bible and will be honest when the bible does not have a clear answer or when I simply don't know.

And that's an example of a loving god? Eternal damnation for not following his rules? Most of my family and friends are non-believers, so I'm quite happy not ending up in a heaven ruled by a vain, ego-maniac, as even though they're all good people, they won't be going according to the rules.

Thankfully, it's not up to me to decide who goes where. I do not know your family or friends and I certainly do not know their hearts or where they will end up. I, too, have friends and family that do not believe - and it hurts.

This I do know - "Love" is not the overriding character of God. The most apt word to describe him as used in the bible is "Holy". That word can mean a few things but is mostly used in the sense that he is "set apart" from all else, perfect, or "wholey other" (a little play on words).

This attribute ties in all his other attributes, including his power, his love and his justice. In order to be "holy" (or perfect) in his justice, he cannot allow any wrongdoing go unpunished. If he did he would no longer have "holy" justice, therefore he would no longer be "holy" and, by definition, he would no longer be God.

And here's where the bible gets really offensive: It claims that all mankind is imperfect. Everybody has done something wrong. And we have all been that way since birth.

[legov]

And here's where the bible gets really offensive: It claims that all mankind is imperfect. Everybody has done something wrong. And we have all been that way since birth.

Who created mankind again? I forgot.

[mjmooney]

And here's where the bible gets really offensive: It claims that all mankind is imperfect. Everybody has done something wrong. And we have all been that way since birth.

Who created mankind again? I forgot.

It's a pity that the only believers we get on here are the lunatic fringe like oz and Julie. I'd quite like to chat with a few more mainstream types as well.

[kurtsimonw]

And that's an example of a loving god? Eternal damnation for not following his rules? Most of my family and friends are non-believers, so I'm quite happy not ending up in a heaven ruled by a vain, ego-maniac, as even though they're all good people, they won't be going according to the rules.

This is what I don't get. Do you simply go to heaven for believing? Does that mean that good, every day, people that do not believe will go to hell whilst Hitler is in heaven? :?

[ozvillafan]

He created Man, knowing full well that they would end up "sinning", yet chooses to condemn them - or at least, a good portion of them - to eternal damnation. Sounds to me like punishing others for your own fuckups.

And therein lies the paradox. God is sovereign but man is responsible.

This is probably best described in the single verse about Judas the traitor:

"The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

It was always going to happen. But the one who betrayed him will be punished.

There are many more examples of this in the bible, most notably Pharoah and the 10 plagues ("he was raised up for this purpose", "he hardened his heart against the Jews").

But how can this possibly be?

I cannot attempt to reconcile this paradox for you. In fact, it cannot be logically reconciled in our way of thinking. Despite this principle being consistent throughout the bible, it does still require faith.

My apologies for not being able to explain better.

Can't believe killing himself (it's not really death though if you think about it, it was just a painful 3-day coma) to save just the Christians was the best idea an omnipotent God could come up with. Not only did it require the immediate deaths of a few people (Judas, Jesus himself, etc.), it is also, by numbers alone, an incredibly woeful solution. 2 billion Christians - that's at least 5 billion others left unsaved, not to mention the billions of other poor sods throughout history who died without getting to know the "Good Word," a group that includes people who died before Jesus was even born.

And using humans to glorify oneself....christ.

What an egomaniac.

God did not have to save any, yet he freely offers forgiveness to all.

(I'll attempt to save space on a big post here by giving just verses for your other points).

As to those before Jesus was born, see Romans 4:3

As for those not knowing the "good word", see Romans 1:20

As for glorifying himself, see Revelation 4:11

Oh, one more thing. It's midnight down here. I will try to answer from the bible any questions people have - but you might have to wait hours for a response.

[legov]

I cannot attempt to reconcile this paradox for you. In fact, it cannot be logically reconciled in our way of thinking. Despite this principle being consistent throughout the bible, it does still require faith.

My apologies for not being able to explain better.

/facepalm

Romans 4:3

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Fair enough.

Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

In other words, you can't think for yourself. You believe whatever the Bible tells you, even if they are obviously and patently wrong.

Also, re: glorifying himself.....doesn't matter whether he created the universe or not, the fact remains that this exhortation of his strongly suggests that he is extremely egomaniacal.

[CrackpotForeigner]

OVF, I salute you for your bravery and I hope you don't suffer too much abuse here. This thread needs people like you! (and when you've seen the light, please send someone to take your place.)

Questions:

Do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?

[i would say it is nothing more than a collection of ancient anecdotes and musings, compiled by human beings. Over the centuries there have been conferences and conventions held by Believers to determine which bits to leave out and what to put in, just like with the Koran.]

Do you believe that people like me, who only sin a little bit (), are condemned to eternal torture because we find the whole Jesus story a bit fishy?

And do you believe that someone who sins big time (like a god-fearing genocidal maniac, say) will spend eternity in heaven because he has faith in Jesus and has asked forgiveness from him for his sins?

Have you ever seen, physically, with your own eyes, anything which suggests, without doubt, the existence of a god?

[That'll do for now, it's almost kickoff!]

[Chindie]

I'm not even sure I get that... curious buzz from the unbrindled er... curiousity... of finding out what the mentalists believe anymore. There is nothing to be learned, theres not even any new astonished glee to be garnered from the incredible outpouring of madness to be had any more. There's been some piqued interest once in a while, the times that the charade falls down and they reveal just what hate filled beliefs they hold and what bigots they are, even the outwardly more respectable ones. But more often than not, it's the same mindless quoting of fictional text, the same chirped arguments that always fail to provide an answer anyone other than the converted would find to be satisfactory, the same wilful obfuscation, the same blindness, the same failings in logic...

I don't think there is anything constructive to be earned from entering a dialogue with these people any more. Not even entertainment any longer, you used to be able to laugh at the grown men and women who believe in fairy stories, that jokes worn thin. I think it'd take a proper mental one, a real basket case, to make a debate with someone suffering from religion to be worthwhile.

Maybe if one of the non-Abrahamic ones popped up something new might be said, but in my experience of practising Sikhs and Hindus, for example, even if they truly believe and follow the rules and regulations, it has a different flavour to it than the nutter Christians, Muslims and Jews.

[Kiwivillan]

I'm yet to meet a Christian who accepts that Bible stories straight out plagirise the Babylonians and Zoarastianism which plagirised prior religions which plagirised Egyptian ad infinitum. Jesus is Horus, Mithra, Inanna, blah blah blah.

No they are all nonsense but I'm going to plump with a book which originates from Jewish goatherders from 3500 years ago that managed to be usurped by the Roman Empire in a politcal powerplay yet treat it as the absolute word of god.

Utter utter madness.

[Chindie]

Julie is your source for all that kind of craziness. I seem to remember reading about the Jehovahs more or less knowing that all the stories are pinched from here and there with the names changed (presumably to protect the identities of those involved or something), but then... ignoring it or something?

Now in any other case you'd be able to go 'But that's crazy' and the person would go 'Oh yeah... well, I'm a moron, haha, silly me' but with this kind of crazy they build a load more rubbish around it and ignore the contradiction (or worse acknowledge it but go 'But it doesn't matter cos this bits true'). And dedicate their lives to it. It'd be sad if it wasn't so infuriating.

[tonyh29]

No they are all nonsense but I'm going to plump with a book which originates from Jewish goatherders from 3500 years ago

It's rumoured to be about Hyksos Shepherd Pharaohs of Egypt ( they weren't shepherds so don't let the name confuse you) and exodus was a story of their exodus from Egypt, an actual historical event where some half a million people evacuated Egypt after a civil war ...

if the Bible were a book about the Egyptian Pharaohs , then it would actually make some sense ..

[Chindie]

That is one of the problems with the Bible, some of it is, in part or wholly, accurate. It pulls actual events or aspects of them and places them in the context of other happenings, giving the thing a sense of a legitimacy. So when it starts with feeding thousands with 2 loaves and a handful of fish, walking on water, coming back from the dead, sudden appearances of bears to kill troublesome youths... the gullible go 'Hmm... but that bit was right so maybe it all is...'.

This is a classic technique in fiction. I'd give an example but the righteous got confused last time.

[legov]

Well, Harry Potter takes the train at King's Cross every year so his story must be true.

[legov]

I'm not even sure I get that... curious buzz from the unbrindled er... curiousity... of finding out what the mentalists believe anymore. There is nothing to be learned, theres not even any new astonished glee to be garnered from the incredible outpouring of madness to be had any more. There's been some piqued interest once in a while, the times that the charade falls down and they reveal just what hate filled beliefs they hold and what bigots they are, even the outwardly more respectable ones. But more often than not, it's the same mindless quoting of fictional text, the same chirped arguments that always fail to provide an answer anyone other than the converted would find to be satisfactory, the same wilful obfuscation, the same blindness, the same failings in logic...

I don't think there is anything constructive to be earned from entering a dialogue with these people any more. Not even entertainment any longer, you used to be able to laugh at the grown men and women who believe in fairy stories, that jokes worn thin. I think it'd take a proper mental one, a real basket case, to make a debate with someone suffering from religion to be worthwhile.

Maybe if one of the non-Abrahamic ones popped up something new might be said, but in my experience of practising Sikhs and Hindus, for example, even if they truly believe and follow the rules and regulations, it has a different flavour to it than the nutter Christians, Muslims and Jews.

[Chindie]

Yes?

[ozvillafan]

OVF, I salute you for your bravery and I hope you don't suffer too much abuse here. This thread needs people like you! (and when you've seen the light, please send someone to take your place.)

Questions:

Do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?

[i would say it is nothing more than a collection of ancient anecdotes and musings, compiled by human beings. Over the centuries there have been conferences and conventions held by Believers to determine which bits to leave out and what to put in, just like with the Koran.]

Sorry for the late reply.

Yes, I do. That immediately lumps me in with the nutters and fundamentalists so I expect some abuse coming :winkold:

The truth is, the whole lot could be thrown out the window as a nice historical piece and nothing more if it wasn't for Jesus - more specifically: Jesus' resurrection. Even Paul knows this:

19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (1 Cor 15:19)

Do you believe that people like me, who only sin a little bit (), are condemned to eternal torture because we find the whole Jesus story a bit fishy?

And do you believe that someone who sins big time (like a god-fearing genocidal maniac, say) will spend eternity in heaven because he has faith in Jesus and has asked forgiveness from him for his sins?

The bible is very clear on this. We all stand guilty, but the offer is available to all, freely.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (Romans 3:23-24)

That means those who reject Jesus and want nothing to do with him get their wish. And those who do horrible atrocities - say, Hitler - are not so bad that they, too, can be redeemed if they accept the gift.

What does it mean to accept the gift? In English it's probably best described by the phrase "repent and believe". Meaning believe that Jesus death is sufficient to cover all your wrongdoings and to stop doing them.

Unfortunately, organised religion is full of examples of people who treat Jesus death as a "get out of jail free" card to cover over a multitude of continual and habitual wrongdoings. That's evidence of non-belief, despite their claims to the contrary. As Jesus says:

By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (Matthew 7:16)

Have you ever seen, physically, with your own eyes, anything which suggests, without doubt, the existence of a god?

Other than the same things you see in the world, no. Nothing miraculous - no angels, near death experiences, etc, etc. Boring, eh?