Dutch expected to ban Halal and Kosher slaughter practise

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Surely this is just another piece of legislation pandering to the anti-muslim sentiment on the continent? I know the Dutch are pissed off because their levels of homophobic crime have risen due to greater numbers of muslims moving in (allegedly, there was an article on it a while back, damned if i can find it now).

[Chindie]

Of course it is, the onl reason it's going anywhere is because the anti-Islamic party thats gained influence in recent years in the Netherlands has thrown it's weight behind it.

It doesn't stop the idea having merit however.

I just would hold off introducing such an idea here, for example, because it's asking for trouble that ultimately you can avoid occuring when theres more important stuff to worry about.

[bickster]

Yes but like I said, it's the final two minutes we're talking about here, so little difference between the methods, it should hardly be a discussion point

[thetrees]

I wasn't going to comment on this topic as it's largely irrelevant to me but I've succumbed. As I see it, the idea is to try to use an animal welfare issue as a stick to beat certain religions with, which whilst my atheist stance welcomes the idea of sticking it to the religions, I'd rather we did it equally, whilst treating them all fairly.

Anyone ever been to a slaughter house? It's not a pretty sight, no one kills animals for food in a "humane" way, they after all aren't humans but your bog standard traditional British / European way of killing animals is pretty brutal too. These animals were bred to die so we could eat them, a little bit of suffering really was to be expected at the end of the cycle, yes we can try and make sure they have a decent life while they go about their business of eating & growing but when it comes down to the final moments, whats the difference in the way they die? Not a lot really, a couple of minutes of pain and they'll be dead, it's what we bred them for in the first place. They owe their very existence to these final moments and what happens between then and they are delivered to our plates.

I'm no vegetarian but I can understand why they would be upset, it's logical to their stance and in some respects I admire them for sticking to their principals but for other carnivores to complain that "our method of killing" is better than "your method of killing" is all a bit juvenile really, let's be honest here, this is a dig at particular religions not the slaughtering methods, it's just a part of the far right wing agenda to be constantly be having a pop at certain non-Christian religions but because it involves animals, that a large proportion of the population get all mushy over, then people get sucked in to the agenda and as far as the far right are concerned thats just a little bit more hatred they've garnered and along the way just a little bit more support.

The animals will die, it's why they exist but lets not start hating people because their religion kills animals in a certain way, every way is barbaric, either live with that fact or stop eating meat. Me? I like meat but I won't hate people for they way they prepare it, it would be hypocritical.

Some good points, but I think that you are wide of the mark wih your 'far right wing agenda'. There s a right wing in Dutch politics in the shape of Geert Wilders' party, but I believe that it was the animal party who highlighted that halal product was sold in parliament canteens, and this 'ban' may well have come from them.

I have seen most creatures slaughtered, in several different environments, on 4 continents. Indeed I spent yesterday in a slaughterhouse and still managed to eat dinner and sleep soundly!

Taking Holland in isolation, we are largely talking chicken, as the only other animal protein that they produce on a large scale is pork. Most, if not all, Dutch 'halal' production was/is stunned. The test for this, as far as the halal bodies are concerned, is to stun a bird, take it off the shackles and put it on the floor. If it recovers, then the frequency of the stunner is okay for halal production, as the bird is deemed to be alive when slaughtered.

Thus many Dutch poultry plants have produced 'halal' for several years. However, the modern and widespread method of 'stunning' is by gas, where the creatures are lulled into a gentle sleep, and are effectively dead before a blade touches them. This is a more efficient method, benefitting the creature as well as the working conditions of the people in that area of production, but it means that they are not able to be declared 'halal'

So any move to 'ban' halal production in the Netherlands is largely symbolic, as modern production methods have already put a stop to it.

[LondonLax]

Don't you work at the airport? You just hang out at slaughter houses in your spare time? Your avatar is starting to make more sense! :shock:

[thetrees]

Don't you work at the airport? You just hang out at slaughter houses in your spare time? Your avatar is starting to make more sense! :shock:

A man of mystery me.

But not Mysteryman of course :winkold:

[Stevo985]

Nope, Bickster in rare moment of talking utter bollocks shocker.... but that's no excuse to make life as shitty as possible up to then.

Not sure where I said that. I in fact said...

... a little bit of suffering really was to be expected at the end of the cycle, yes we can try and make sure they have a decent life while they go about their business of eating & growing but when it comes down to the final moments, whats the difference in the way they die?

I would say part of what you have in bold is killing them as painlessly as possible.

We're not making sure they have a decent life if we're killing them inhumanely when a more humane way is as easy to do.

As kidlewis hinted at, it's not much good giving them a decent life if you then make them suffer for their final moments.

It shouldn't be used as a stick to beat islam with, as you suggested. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

but ignoring religion, I don't thin kit can be argued that Halal methods are less humane than "normal" methods.

Whether banning Halal is the way to go is another debate.

Final 2 minutes of their life? Have you ever been in a British abattoir? Which ever method of death is used it takes two minutes (roughly) for the animal to die. Painlessly doesn't really come into it to be honest, what is more "painless" (or humane if you wish to use such a term for something which isn't human anyway) , a bolt through the head which takes two minutes to die (if they get it right first time, which they often don't) or a huge slit from ear to ear, which takes two minutes to die, there is an argument (and actual proper scientific study) by a now deceased German Veterinary Professor from the University of Hamburg that suggests that the Muslim way of killing animals for eating is far less painful, than a bolt through the head as long as it is done correctly. The same would also apply for the Kosher way (which is very similar), like I said in my original post, people get mushy about animals, if they look at the facts of the matter, there is little in the way of difference between a bolt through the head and a slit throat from ear to ear. Same effect, same amount of time to die, one's just a little messier than the other and for those that really care about the animals feelings (there we go treating them like baby's again) they feel about the same amount of pain etc (despite what the RSPCA say - not an independent org as far as this discussion goes, they have an agenda).

Hypocrissy rules, sometimes

if that's the case, then fair enough.

It's the "it's only the last 2 minutes of their life" argument that doesn't sit right with me.

Regardless of which method is more painless than the other.

I'm not a vegetarian and never will be. But it would sit better with me that the animals I eat were killed relatively painlessly.

As I said, if Halal is no worse than traditional methods then fair enough. i was working on the assumption that it wasn't. Admittedly it's not an educated (on the subject matter) opinion.

[thetrees]

Just to clear this up I walked around a Dutch poultry plant the other day (I can't go a week without my fix of mass slaughter!) and had it confirmed that the ban in question was imposed upon the unstunned method of slaughter.

As this method is not viable for large scale producers the only people affected would be small, back street operations. When you consider enforcement, they will probably carry on regardless.

Just another example of a tiny story that is made out to be something big.

[GarethRDR]

Just another example of a tiny story that is made out to be something big.

Sounds like my penis.

[Richard]

Just another example of a tiny story that is made out to be something big.

Sounds like my penis.

He said story not fairytale

[GarethRDR]

Zing!

[mjmooney]

Allowing women drivers in Saudi Arabia will be 'end of virginity'

Allowing women drivers in Saudi Arabia will tempt them into sex, promote pornography and create more homosexuals, according to some conservative Muslim scholars.

By Andy Bloxham

8:15AM GMT 02 Dec 2011

Academics at the Majlis al-Ifta' al-A'ala, which is Saudi Arabia's highest religious council, said the relaxation of the rules would inevitably lead to “no more virgins”.

Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world where women are banned from driving.

The academics, working in conjunction with Kamal Subhi, a former professor at the conservative King Fahd University, produced the conclusions in a report for the country's legislative assembly, the Shura Council.

It warned that allowing women to drive would "provoke a surge in prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce".

Within 10 years of the ban being lifted, it claimed, there would be "no more virgins" in the Islamic kingdom.

Telegraph

[kidlewis]

Allowing women drivers in Saudi Arabia will be 'end of virginity'

Allowing women drivers in Saudi Arabia will tempt them into sex, promote pornography and create more homosexuals, according to some conservative Muslim scholars.

By Andy Bloxham

8:15AM GMT 02 Dec 2011

Academics at the Majlis al-Ifta' al-A'ala, which is Saudi Arabia's highest religious council, said the relaxation of the rules would inevitably lead to “no more virgins”.

Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world where women are banned from driving.

The academics, working in conjunction with Kamal Subhi, a former professor at the conservative King Fahd University, produced the conclusions in a report for the country's legislative assembly, the Shura Council.

It warned that allowing women to drive would "provoke a surge in prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce".

Within 10 years of the ban being lifted, it claimed, there would be "no more virgins" in the Islamic kingdom.

Telegraph

Once again the middle east highlight how **** backward they are. The rulers at least.

Obviously I missed the bit in Sex Ed class about when girls drive a car they immediately get the urge to get meatpoled.

[mjmooney]

Allowing women drivers in Saudi Arabia will be 'end of virginity'

Allowing women drivers in Saudi Arabia will tempt them into sex, promote pornography and create more homosexuals, according to some conservative Muslim scholars.

By Andy Bloxham

8:15AM GMT 02 Dec 2011

Academics at the Majlis al-Ifta' al-A'ala, which is Saudi Arabia's highest religious council, said the relaxation of the rules would inevitably lead to “no more virgins”.

Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world where women are banned from driving.

The academics, working in conjunction with Kamal Subhi, a former professor at the conservative King Fahd University, produced the conclusions in a report for the country's legislative assembly, the Shura Council.

It warned that allowing women to drive would "provoke a surge in prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce".

Within 10 years of the ban being lifted, it claimed, there would be "no more virgins" in the Islamic kingdom.

Telegraph

Once again the middle east highlight how **** backward they are. The rulers at least.

Obviously I missed the bit in Sex Ed class about when girls drive a car they immediately get the urge to get meatpoled.

I think the Saudi take is that all women are gagging for it by default; a driving licence will just give them more opportunity.

[kidlewis]

well based on western pornographic interpretation of arab women then yes they'd pretty much do anything for a bit of meat, but in the normal world I imagine it's very different.

Do all the arab leaders have free porn sites bookmarked or something?

[mjmooney]

This is a rather brave lady - NSFW

[tinker]

This is a rather brave lady - NSFW

Like the shoes.

[omariqy]

Allowing women drivers in Saudi Arabia will be 'end of virginity'

Allowing women drivers in Saudi Arabia will tempt them into sex, promote pornography and create more homosexuals, according to some conservative Muslim scholars.

By Andy Bloxham

8:15AM GMT 02 Dec 2011

Academics at the Majlis al-Ifta' al-A'ala, which is Saudi Arabia's highest religious council, said the relaxation of the rules would inevitably lead to “no more virgins”.

Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world where women are banned from driving.

The academics, working in conjunction with Kamal Subhi, a former professor at the conservative King Fahd University, produced the conclusions in a report for the country's legislative assembly, the Shura Council.

It warned that allowing women to drive would "provoke a surge in prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce".

Within 10 years of the ban being lifted, it claimed, there would be "no more virgins" in the Islamic kingdom.

Telegraph

Seriously? Oh my days.

[Jondaken]

I dont really see the issue here. If you're happy to kill an animal and eat it for dinner, should you really be that fussed how it's killed?

I mean if you want to have any morals on animal welfare, you shouldnt be killing the things in the first place surely?

I doubt its any animals goal in life to become covered in mustard.

Yes, if I was going to kill an animal and eat it, id want to stick it out its missery as quick as possible, but only because I dont want to go through the ordeal of watching it suffer. I dont actually care about the animal. Id just hope it tastes good.