Dutch expected to ban Halal and Kosher slaughter practise

[Risso]

I wonder how many of you who consider it a barbaric practise are thinking the same when you are sitting down at the local curry house ordering your chicken rogan josh? If the animal's being killed then why are we suddenly deciding it should be killed one way or another? If you think killing all animals is wrong then I can understand your point. But if the argument is simply,'please kill it like this because it makes me feel better', then that is just hypocritical of any meat eater.

To turn that round on you, does it not matter at all the level of animal suffering? Should we mistreat them all their lives as they're going to end up dead anyway? It matters surely because animal suffering should be kept to a minimum. Halal killing causes them more suffering and pain than is necessary, all in the name of religion. We should be above that in a modern society.

[andyh]

So, am I right in thinking this ?

All animals are dispatched pretty much in the same way.

Trussed upside down, exposing the neck and then having the troat cut to allow all of the blood to drain away.

The only difference between halal and 'conventional' methods is that the beast is stunned first.

[Risso]

Some Muslim groups allow for the animal to be stunned first, which is obviously the common sense approach to take.

[PIW]

Its more than that. Its pure hypocrisy and intolerant prejudice. The media have taught us to hate muslims and so we will dislike whatever they represent. Halal is 'barbaric' (and a stun gun to the head isn't?- its killing. End of). The West always needs a public enemy (the Yellow peril, the Soviets, now its The Muslims) to justify our interference anywhere and anywhere. personally I'd like to stroke and cuddle animals and give them a kiss until they die. It'll make me and them happier. Until then I couldn't give a shite. nor will i pretend to just to hide a misguided prejudice.

[Risso]

The Jews do it as well, and it's just as barbaric. Lots of people do give a shite about animal welfare, thankfully. It's nothing to do with religion, some people just don't like unnecessary animal suffering. I'm just as much against fox hunting for example as I am Halal slaughter.

[kidlewis]

The Jews do it as well, and it's just as barbaric. Lots of people do give a shite about animal welfare, thankfully. It's nothing to do with religion, some people just don't like unnecessary animal suffering. I'm just as much against fox hunting for example as I am Halal slaughter.

the argument for and against foxhunting was a lot more to do with class than the need for pest control.

now they are shot and I can tell you the foxes don't suffer anymore or any less.

when you see a fox shot and have it's back legs blown off as a result it highlights that the law was for what exactly.

[Risso]

The Jews do it as well, and it's just as barbaric. Lots of people do give a shite about animal welfare, thankfully. It's nothing to do with religion, some people just don't like unnecessary animal suffering. I'm just as much against fox hunting for example as I am Halal slaughter.

the argument for and against foxhunting was a lot more to do with class than the need for pest control.

now they are shot and I can tell you the foxes don't suffer anymore or any less.

when you see a fox shot and have it's back legs blown off as a result it highlights that the law was for what exactly.

That isn't really a vaild reason for dressing up like a bunch of c***s and chasing it around the countryside for hours though is it. I'm not a fox, but I imagine that's quite stressful.

[omariqy]

Have we've got any evidence that it causes the animal more pain/harm?

[villa_shere]

whats annoys me about Halal meat is how companies are selling it to you without telling you first. There was a large about of commercial pubs and supermarkets exposed for selling halal meat without telling the consumer.

[Stevo985]

Have we've got any evidence that it causes the animal more pain/harm?

Common sense?

[kidlewis]

The Jews do it as well, and it's just as barbaric. Lots of people do give a shite about animal welfare, thankfully. It's nothing to do with religion, some people just don't like unnecessary animal suffering. I'm just as much against fox hunting for example as I am Halal slaughter.

the argument for and against foxhunting was a lot more to do with class than the need for pest control.

now they are shot and I can tell you the foxes don't suffer anymore or any less.

when you see a fox shot and have it's back legs blown off as a result it highlights that the law was for what exactly.

That isn't really a vaild reason for dressing up like a bunch of c***s and chasing it around the countryside for hours though is it. I'm not a fox, but I imagine that's quite stressful.

on the same basis I would want to campaign to ban Chavs from inner city areas.

I imagine it is quite stressful, but the end result either way results in a pretty awful death, neither are quick, unless the person with the gun is a police marksman.

[omariqy]

whats annoys me about Halal meat is how companies are selling it to you without telling you first. There was a large about of commercial pubs and supermarkets exposed for selling halal meat without telling the consumer.

So have you always asked about where your meat comes from?

[kidlewis]

they generally use lamping/spotlighting now as foxes are generally nocturnal animals, and it's not the easiest thing to do.

[PIW]

I wonder how many of you who consider it a barbaric practise are thinking the same when you are sitting down at the local curry house ordering your chicken rogan josh? If the animal's being killed then why are we suddenly deciding it should be killed one way or another? If you think killing all animals is wrong then I can understand your point. But if the argument is simply,'please kill it like this because it makes me feel better', then that is just hypocritical of any meat eater.

To turn that round on you, does it not matter at all the level of animal suffering? Should we mistreat them all their lives as they're going to end up dead anyway? It matters surely because animal suffering should be kept to a minimum. Halal killing causes them more suffering and pain than is necessary, all in the name of religion. We should be above that in a modern society.

I'd concede the point if the argument was one concerning animal welfare grounds alone and whether they have the right to a life with as little suffering as possible. But the argument here is about the moment of their death. If the thrust of the argument was, and has always been, the human search for the best way to kill their prey then it would be a fair issue to wonder if the halal way is the best way. However, this has been brought up, as ever, as a stick to beat muslim's with. That's why I take the stance I do.

[Risso]

I wonder how many of you who consider it a barbaric practise are thinking the same when you are sitting down at the local curry house ordering your chicken rogan josh? If the animal's being killed then why are we suddenly deciding it should be killed one way or another? If you think killing all animals is wrong then I can understand your point. But if the argument is simply,'please kill it like this because it makes me feel better', then that is just hypocritical of any meat eater.

To turn that round on you, does it not matter at all the level of animal suffering? Should we mistreat them all their lives as they're going to end up dead anyway? It matters surely because animal suffering should be kept to a minimum. Halal killing causes them more suffering and pain than is necessary, all in the name of religion. We should be above that in a modern society.

I'd concede the point if the argument was one concerning animal welfare grounds alone and whether they have the right to a life with as little suffering as possible. But the argument here is about the moment of their death. If the thrust of the argument was, and has always been, the human search for the best way to kill their prey then it would be a fair issue to wonder if the halal way is the best way. However, this has been brought up, as ever, as a stick to beat muslim's with. That's why I take the stance I do.

The RSPCA and other groups have carried out lots of research, and have concluded that is far more cruel than if they are stunned first. I'm not sure what grievance you'd imagine the RSPCA has against Muslims. The research also says exactly the same thing about Kosher meat, and the Jews are not exactly bessie mates with Muslims are they?

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

It's a ban on that form of slaughter inside Dutch borders, import is unaffected.

Bit of a waste of time, it needs to be banned from import also.

You can't educate people that way, it's a nice try but half hearted.

Would you not agree that this would basically prevent Islamic and Jewish people from living in the Netherlands though?

I am not getting into the Noah's Ark discussion again but educating people about religion and why it's wrong will include both easy lessons and hard lessons. I can't help that, they created the problem not me. They choose or are forced to believe in something that does not exist. I would say it's our duty as human beings to help them if we can and every little law change, be it dress codes or whatever is little chips out of the lies.

Just my opinion expressed as nice as possible. Lets not fight

:?

[Shillzz]

Wasn't fighting, was just a genuine question

I am not getting into the Noah's Ark discussion again but educating people about religion and why it's wrong will include both easy lessons and hard lessons.

Am more in the ambivalent camp myself and probably wouldnt ever tell someone that religion was wrong. Though I do agree with banning Halal and Kosher slaughters, which probably makes a bit of a contradiction, since this forms part of religion.

[villa_shere]

whats annoys me about Halal meat is how companies are selling it to you without telling you first. There was a large about of commercial pubs and supermarkets exposed for selling halal meat without telling the consumer.

So have you always asked about where your meat comes from?

Where possible yes, when I go to a restaurant or fast food place i ask if the meat is halal, when i visit my butchers i ask there too.

I dont knowingly eat halal/kosher meat for religious reasons, some people dont eat it for moral and ethic reasons, so for the people who do not wish to eat it should be told.

Classic example is the balti pie at VP, all the pukka pies bar one contain "haraam" meat. Only the Balti pie contains Halal meat but this is not advertised

[PIW]

I wonder how many of you who consider it a barbaric practise are thinking the same when you are sitting down at the local curry house ordering your chicken rogan josh? If the animal's being killed then why are we suddenly deciding it should be killed one way or another? If you think killing all animals is wrong then I can understand your point. But if the argument is simply,'please kill it like this because it makes me feel better', then that is just hypocritical of any meat eater.

To turn that round on you, does it not matter at all the level of animal suffering? Should we mistreat them all their lives as they're going to end up dead anyway? It matters surely because animal suffering should be kept to a minimum. Halal killing causes them more suffering and pain than is necessary, all in the name of religion. We should be above that in a modern society.

I'd concede the point if the argument was one concerning animal welfare grounds alone and whether they have the right to a life with as little suffering as possible. But the argument here is about the moment of their death. If the thrust of the argument was, and has always been, the human search for the best way to kill their prey then it would be a fair issue to wonder if the halal way is the best way. However, this has been brought up, as ever, as a stick to beat muslim's with. That's why I take the stance I do.

The RSPCA and other groups have carried out lots of research, and have concluded that is far more cruel than if they are stunned first. I'm not sure what grievance you'd imagine the RSPCA has against Muslims. The research also says exactly the same thing about Kosher meat, and the Jews are not exactly bessie mates with Muslims are they?

As I said that's another point for another time. Do I think the halal way is the best way? Not really. Do I think its barbaric? Not really. But if i started to consider how little fluffy bunny went from happily springing along the meadow to being pebble-dashed down my toilet I'd probably never eat meat again.

[KentspornoKnob]

I often like many have to go to the dentist. If i have to have a tooth extracted / serous work done then i have a localised injection to numb the pain - this works very well.I am glad that it does as to have a tooth extracted without pain relief would be beyond my threshold.

So is it more humane to stun into unconsciousness an animal prior to killing it rather than cutting its throat whilst fully awake?

I think the answer is pretty conclusive - yes