The, he's finally GONE! Tell us your thoughts Thread

[Nigel]

Mind you there were people on here wanting him sacked at the time aswell.

I dont remember that.

All I remember is him enjoying the longest honeymoon period in football history...... with a little help from the buyout of course.

[Big_John_10]

Surely the give him time argument only works if they've proved in the past they can do the business at this level.

If darren bent had started poorly last jan you could argue give him time because we know he can do it at this level.

If we signed a poor league 2 forward we wouldn't argue give him time because we know he's not up to the job.

Just giving mcleish time won't equal success. I'd say the evidence is there to suggest the more time he gets the more long term damage he will do.

I guess as long as we win a game against a shit team every few weeks it will keep the fans happy. Well done randy.

[Mantis]

Surely the give him time argument only works if they've proved in the past they can do the business at this level.

If darren bent had started poorly last jan you could argue give him time because we know he can do it at this level.

If we signed a poor league 2 forward we wouldn't argue give him time because we know he's not up to the job.

Just giving mcleish time won't equal success. I'd say the evidence is there to suggest the more time he gets the more long term damage he will do.

I guess as long as we win a game against a shit team every few weeks it will keep the fans happy. Well done randy.

I agree with you on everything, except the last bit. Why constantly bring up Randy? Ok, he made a complete mess of the managerial appointment but at the end of the day Randy doesn't control McLeish. McLeish is manager and it's up to him to do what's best for AVFC and at the moment he's nowhere near that.

[brummybloke]

McLeish isn't trying to hold onto his job week by week because he knows he won't be sacked. At most other clubs he would've been sacked by now.

You really think he would have been sacked at most other clubs. I don't see it apart from maybe the top 6 or 7 clubs.

We finished 9th last season with a far superior squad, we are currently 11th. With haven't been in the relegation zone all season, we haven't gone through a string of half a dozen or so defeats on the trot. He has been here for 22 league games. Last season a manager with a far worse record after 22 games in charge ( 5 less points, 10 more goals conceded, 2 less goals scored ) kept his job so at the very least you'd expect that one with a better record and far less resources both in terms of personnel and transfer funds would also keep his.

I'm no fan of McLeish by the way but I'd struggle to think of any club outside the top 6 or 7 who would have sacked him 22 league games after appointing him.

not quite true though is it? we had no one in midfield for around 8 games unless you think playing hogg/ herd /clark as the midfield in their first season breaking into the 1st team and that was only through huge injury lists was fine? and only heskey to play upfront, and no preseason, and none of your own signings until 20th january or what ever it was?

so if you actually included circumstances for the true picture, it is far clearer at how bad a job GC has done.

and MON, the squad he inherited finished 9th? no they didnt, so MON had a far tougher job to do, did he have a pre season? nope, ah.... so actually even though it may show GC has got 6 wins ( woooopeeee) in 22 games which is faster than the other 2 , he has had it far far easier, add into that he also had quite possibly the easiest start to a season i can ever remember.

i doubt people would be too bothered if the brand of football had some sort of structure rather than hit it as high in the air, close your eyes and then all the team charge towards the ball.

if you play decent football the results normally follow, especially when you have the quality of players we have at our disposal

if you play long aimless balls, have no actual footballing philosophy, are tactically inept and are relying each week on lady luck showing up in a villa kit then the results wont come, it will be hit and miss, stop start, no momentum and no chance of building the team up.

GH while a publicity nightmare and also a stuborn old fool, has forgotten more about footballing tactics than GC has ever learned.

MON while looking out for the players and deliberately trying to get them as much money as he could ( im sure he has publicly stated it some time ago), even to the detriment of a club, and not seemingly having much of a plan 'b , was still a great man manager who got shit players to believe they were better than they were and got them to out perform week in week out, or at least more often than not.

what has GC got to bring to the table, seriously? his defence was 1 goal better than our shower of shit from last season, so defence is not his strong point, he got the scum relegated 2 times from the premier league, which should earn him a special place in our hearts, he won the league cup in a run as lucky as you can get really when they were drawn against

rochdale

mk dons

brentford

villa ( in the middle of our injury crisis)

west ham

and in the final, against one of the worst arsenal performances i have seen in a rather long time.

but he won the cup as he can only beat the teams which are infront of him , no matter how shit they are ( although they didnt beat brentford in normal or extra time they won on pens)

oh, they also lost the 1st leg of the semi finals 2-1 to west ham

but what did he leave behind? a relegated clb who won the league cup.

he simply has no system, no big idea, no philosophy, no prefered structured tactics, nothing.

i was pissed off loads of times with GH, really by january i had enough, he then was able to get the players he wanted in the transfer window, others stopped their childish sulking and others had returned from injury.

all of a sudden the passing was working, we were cutting teams up , the ball was mainly on the floor, and there was some exciting football being played, and when i say exciting i dont mean having to scrap it out against 10 men wolves who had won 2 in 18 games, i mean exciting as in attacking adventurous football where for the first time in a long time, we kept possesion of the ball and we were the ones controlling the tempo of games.

his plan which he was trying to impliment was now working, he didnt have the right minded players at the start but he kept with his structure and footballing philosophy.

well GC has got us playing how he wants, im seeing nothing but at best 50 / 50 fights for the ball most of the time, 5 or 10 minutes where the team seem to forget what they were told to do and they go back to playing like the end of last year, but then a team talk will come and it will have been drained out of them.

we will win a few, draw several and lose more than we win, and that is because of all i have said above.

im not happy to have that sort of thing for our club, i guess some people dont mind it?

[momo]

McLeish isn't trying to hold onto his job week by week because he knows he won't be sacked. At most other clubs he would've been sacked by now.

You really think he would have been sacked at most other clubs. I don't see it apart from maybe the top 6 or 7 clubs.

We finished 9th last season with a far superior squad, we are currently 11th. With haven't been in the relegation zone all season, we haven't gone through a string of half a dozen or so defeats on the trot. He has been here for 22 league games. Last season a manager with a far worse record after 22 games in charge ( 5 less points, 10 more goals conceded, 2 less goals scored ) kept his job so at the very least you'd expect that one with a better record and far less resources both in terms of personnel and transfer funds would also keep his.

I'm no fan of McLeish by the way but I'd struggle to think of any club outside the top 6 or 7 who would have sacked him 22 league games after appointing him.

not quite true though is it? we had no one in midfield for around 8 games unless you think playing hogg/ herd /clark as the midfield in their first season breaking into the 1st team and that was only through huge injury lists was fine? and only heskey to play upfront, and no preseason, and none of your own signings until 20th january or what ever it was?

so if you actually included circumstances for the true picture, it is far clearer at how bad a job GC has done.

and MON, the squad he inherited finished 9th? no they didnt, so MON had a far tougher job to do, did he have a pre season? nope, ah.... so actually even though it may show GC has got 6 wins ( woooopeeee) in 22 games which is faster than the other 2 , he has had it far far easier, add into that he also had quite possibly the easiest start to a season i can ever remember.

i doubt people would be too bothered if the brand of football had some sort of structure rather than hit it as high in the air, close your eyes and then all the team charge towards the ball.

if you play decent football the results normally follow, especially when you have the quality of players we have at our disposal

if you play long aimless balls, have no actual footballing philosophy, are tactically inept and are relying each week on lady luck showing up in a villa kit then the results wont come, it will be hit and miss, stop start, no momentum and no chance of building the team up.

GH while a publicity nightmare and also a stuborn old fool, has forgotten more about footballing tactics than GC has ever learned.

MON while looking out for the players and deliberately trying to get them as much money as he could ( im sure he has publicly stated it some time ago), even to the detriment of a club, and not seemingly having much of a plan 'b , was still a great man manager who got shit players to believe they were better than they were and got them to out perform week in week out, or at least more often than not.

what has GC got to bring to the table, seriously? his defence was 1 goal better than our shower of shit from last season, so defence is not his strong point, he got the scum relegated 2 times from the premier league, which should earn him a special place in our hearts, he won the league cup in a run as lucky as you can get really when they were drawn against

rochdale

mk dons

brentford

villa ( in the middle of our injury crisis)

west ham

and in the final, against one of the worst arsenal performances i have seen in a rather long time.

but he won the cup as he can only beat the teams which are infront of him , no matter how shit they are ( although they didnt beat brentford in normal or extra time they won on pens)

oh, they also lost the 1st leg of the semi finals 2-1 to west ham

but what did he leave behind? a relegated clb who won the league cup.

he simply has no system, no big idea, no philosophy, no prefered structured tactics, nothing.

i was pissed off loads of times with GH, really by january i had enough, he then was able to get the players he wanted in the transfer window, others stopped their childish sulking and others had returned from injury.

all of a sudden the passing was working, we were cutting teams up , the ball was mainly on the floor, and there was some exciting football being played, and when i say exciting i dont mean having to scrap it out against 10 men wolves who had won 2 in 18 games, i mean exciting as in attacking adventurous football where for the first time in a long time, we kept possesion of the ball and we were the ones controlling the tempo of games.

his plan which he was trying to impliment was now working, he didnt have the right minded players at the start but he kept with his structure and footballing philosophy.

well GC has got us playing how he wants, im seeing nothing but at best 50 / 50 fights for the ball most of the time, 5 or 10 minutes where the team seem to forget what they were told to do and they go back to playing like the end of last year, but then a team talk will come and it will have been drained out of them.

we will win a few, draw several and lose more than we win, and that is because of all i have said above.

im not happy to have that sort of thing for our club, i guess some people dont mind it?

What team were you watching? We were totally shit except for the last two games. And who is GC??

[macandally]

There is no pressure other than a small section? I think 88% on here wanted him out? 92% on another villa forum, how big does that crowd have to be to become big?

So the majority of what a couple of thousan posters on internet forums, if that? I realise the opinions on boards suc h as these are indicators of the general view but it's on those that really dislike him that can be arsed to say so online.

Until a significant number of people make their voices heard or vote with their feet there is no pressure. There is no indication anywhere that he's on the verge of being sacked, or hanging on week by week as it was put.

Read what I said as there is a difference to what you are saying above.

I said he was on borrowed time which he always has been and his planning was week to week, which it has been and remains to be. He knows that he is one or two results away from the crowd being against him. Are you denying that?

As for voting with their feet, are you now adding an argument that attendances at VP are up? Or even the same as last year?

The problem is that at the moment, the club, the fans and the manager all have different aspirations:

The club to cut the wage bill.

The manager to keep his job.

The fans to find a reason for enthusiasm.

The last time we were all going in the same direction was after the buyout with ONeill, we were all in it together and going for it. Until that happens again, we are all going to be divided on here, on the terraces and as a fanbase.

[ozvillafan]

GH while a publicity nightmare and also a stuborn old fool, has forgotten more about footballing tactics than GC has ever learned.

Well said (your entire post - though this line sums it up very well).....

..... but who is GC?

[stanthemanisgod]

As for voting with their feet, are you now adding an argument that attendances at VP are up? Or even the same as last year?

No I'm not - attendances are down, but imo they are not low enough to represent any real pressure from the board onto the manager.

And I disagree that the club and the manager have different aspirations, I would agree that the club and certainly the fans I speak to on here seem to have different aspirations.

That said I see UEFA have issued another warning to clubs regarding the financial fairplay regs, stating something like 31 clubs would not qualify for european competition if the rules were in force this season. So maybe there is some merit in bringing our finances into order sooner rather than later.

[TrentVilla]

And I disagree that the club and the manager have different aspirations, I would agree that the club and certainly the fans I speak to on here seem to have different aspirations.

Then you are wrong because Paul Faulkner and McLeish have already been shown to have very different expectations and aspirations this season.

[Mantis]

GH while a publicity nightmare and also a stuborn old fool, has forgotten more about footballing tactics than GC has ever learned.

Well said (your entire post - though this line sums it up very well).....

..... but who is GC?

Alex McLeish - ginger cl**ge

[dudevillaisnice]

[Woodytom]

For those who are using 'Mcliesh's past' to predict a particularly dull future......................

Why don't we look forward to the cup he is going to win us?

[Mantis]

For those who are using 'Mcliesh's past' to predict a particularly dull future......................

Why don't we look forward to the cup he is going to win us?

If it means getting relegated as well I'd rather not.

[Woodytom]

For those who are using 'Mcliesh's past' to predict a particularly dull future......................

Why don't we look forward to the cup he is going to win us?

If it means getting relegated as well I'd rather not.

Id probably take a season in the championship for a cup - (baring in mind his record at coming back up is solid).

The point is, why do people focus purely on the negatives of him?? The positives just seem left behind.

When speaking about his time at Rangers, people just seem to remember the time he finished 3rd - and focus on that - rather than taking the whole package including 7 major trophies and admitting he did a very steady job. As good as MON up in Scotland.

His time at Birmingham is focused purely on his failures, rather than an outstanding season when they came 9th and a cup.

Im not saying, that its all positive and there are no negatives, but surely the man deserves a fair critique - at the very least??

[T.Daley]

For those who are using 'Mcliesh's past' to predict a particularly dull future......................

Why don't we look forward to the cup he is going to win us?

If it means getting relegated as well I'd rather not.

Id probably take a season in the championship for a cup - (baring in mind his record at coming back up is solid).

The point is, why do people focus purely on the negatives of him?? The positives just seem left behind.

When speaking about his time at Rangers, people just seem to remember the time he finished 3rd - and focus on that - rather than taking the whole package including 7 major trophies and admitting he did a very steady job. As good as MON up in Scotland.

His time at Birmingham is focused purely on his failures, rather than an outstanding season when they came 9th and a cup.

Im not saying, that its all positive and there are no negatives, but surely the man deserves a fair critique - at the very least??

This is such a fair point. But Big Eck was written off the moment he walked through the door. Some of the abuse he gets on here is shameful, especially when people will give him zero credit for anything remotely positive he does, putting down to luck instead.

But he is certainly not a quitter and he clearly is not going to get sacked anytime soon, so we either choose to love to hate him or we actually get behind the manager of our beloved club. Think I know which will happen.

[macandally]

For those who are using 'Mcliesh's past' to predict a particularly dull future......................

Why don't we look forward to the cup he is going to win us?

If it means getting relegated as well I'd rather not.

Id probably take a season in the championship for a cup - (baring in mind his record at coming back up is solid).

The point is, why do people focus purely on the negatives of him?? The positives just seem left behind.

When speaking about his time at Rangers, people just seem to remember the time he finished 3rd - and focus on that - rather than taking the whole package including 7 major trophies and admitting he did a very steady job. As good as MON up in Scotland.

His time at Birmingham is focused purely on his failures, rather than an outstanding season when they came 9th and a cup.

Im not saying, that its all positive and there are no negatives, but surely the man deserves a fair critique - at the very least??

This is such a fair point. But Big Eck was written off the moment he walked through the door. Some of the abuse he gets on here is shameful, especially when people will give him zero credit for anything remotely positive he does, putting down to luck instead.

But he is certainly not a quitter and he clearly is not going to get sacked anytime soon, so we either choose to love to hate him or we actually get behind the manager of our beloved club. Think I know which will happen.

its not shameful, it is factual. We didnt want him full stop, he brought nothing to the party!

As for Rangers and Blues, the web is crawling with fans of those clubs speaking highly of McLeish, his ability and his style of football...........................................Oh hang on a minute. No its not.

Nobody likes him as a manager, past or present, apart from a minority on here (yes I can use that term) who seem to think that he has been held back his career by the teams he has managed, the poor playing staff he has had etc etc.

Its just not true!

[Keyblade]

But his time here has not been completely shit the way most are making it out to be. The point was, people aren't bring fair to him and are acting quite childishly in their 'critique' of him.

[Houlston]

This is a poll taken from Vital Rangers, I dont really see why any this should be ignored just because he got Birmingham relegated twice. It also doesnt include their 9th finish.

What is Big Eck's greatest achievement?

Rangers champions league last 16 46%

Rangers treble 23%

Aberdeen cup winners cup 20%

Birmingham league cup 11%

This is from a Rangers fan who edits that website.

So... Alex McLeish. Fond memories?

For me yes, no one can deny that he brought success to the club. Sure, he was a surprise choice at the time but then he did learn under the best... Sir Alex Ferguson. He did make a few dodgy signings but then he found a few gems as well. He was also the first manager to take us to the last 16 of the UEFA Champions League under the new format. A great achievement. I just don't think he was ever fully accepted by some Rangers fans because he was not a big name at the time. But I think he was great.

That last bit sound familiar?

[GarethRDR]

Aberdeen's Cup Winner's Cup win by a **** mile.

[brommy]

So, to summarise:

Some think McLeish's previous record is poor and he is guaranteed to fail quickly at Villa.

Some think McLeish's previous record is good and he may do relatively well at Villa.

There is a strong case that both of these can be seen as excessively negative/positive opinion, followed by pure conjecture.

The opinion of McLeish's pre-Villa record is irrelevant and remains just an opinion. What matters is the relative performance of the team he manages during his tenure at our club.

Whether McLeish will fail in the short to medium term* can not be proven as fact just yet, so why don't we support our team and wait and see? There appears to be a convenient break in the games some time in May. Perhaps this would be a good time to judge?

In short, grow some balls and patience. :winkold:

* remembering 9 out of 10 managers at 9 out of 10 'top flight' clubs are seen to 'fail' in the long term. The likes of SAF's record is very rare.