Ciaran Clark

[Kingfisher]

Oh no, now Bannan is leaving Clark will be the new 'Bannan'.

I can see it now. Clark's passing percentage will be used to show how good a defender he is.

It's definitely the interceptions stat that will be used to argue Clark case as an intelligent defender who can read the game, I don't think he comes out favourably in any other, so a narrative will have to be constructed from that.

Incidentally, Vlaar wins the passing award for accurate passes last season and unless I'm mistaken, Baker wins in nearly in all the defensive categories except interceptions.

Baker is better than Clark. Bakers stock will rise.

[roadoftrinity]

Clark's first full season as first choice centre half which he was playing behind an in experienced midfield and at times playing in a ridiculous 3 at the back formation.

At the moment Baker does look at the better centre back prospect, but Clark still has time on his side so would be good to get him on a new contract.

On another note, it amazes me how many people on here think Cahill is such a fantastic defender. Nearly every time I've seen him play for Bolton, Cheslea and England I've though he was average at best, and that's been generous.

[Kingfisher]

A few corrections to my earlier post, having bothered to check I noticed the following.

In 2012/13 out of Vlaar, Baker & Clark

Vlaar had the most passes per game and was the most accurate with them, he had the highest rate in successful tackling per game, and the best ball interception rate. He was the least succesful in the air.

Baker won the most aerial duels and blocked the most shots. He was behind Vlaar as the second best tackler. He was equal top with Clark for offsides won.

Clark made the most clearances. However he was dribbled past the most and gave away the most fouls. His tackling was dissapointinly poor in comparison to the other two.

Source: whoscored.com

[smetrov]

 

 

 

I might have stressed this point earlier, but Clark's problem when it comes to competing with Bakers is that while Clark is a better all around footballer Baker is arguably a better defender. Clark's versatility comes back to haunt him, as he could do a good job several places, but might not be first choice anywhere.

 

I don't know in regards to the defender comment I think they're just different defenders. Baker is very much an all or enough defender but in my opinion has made quite a few slip ups this season. I remember Stoke which I don't blame him for, these things happen but it's just an example. He'll no doubt stamp those out the more experience he gets. Clark for me however is a completely different defender than Baker. I think Clark reads the game a lot better and for the most part a much more intelligent footballer, hence the captaincy at times even though he's a very young age. I know I just know that if we offload him he will become a great player. Gary Cahill is a very good comparison to be honest, Clark is also a pretty big goal threat imo. He always seems to chip in with a few at times.

 

A lot of people are so quick to condemn people on here. I'm happy I'm not a footballer for all the good performances you put in it seems the fans only really remember or judge you on your worst ones. These are young players, they are of course going to be in-consistent. Some are going to grow quicker and better than others, that's a given but guys like Clark have proven themselves and shown loads of potential.

 

 

So much to disagree with here:-

 

1.Clark will be 24 in September 

2.Given his age and the number of appearances - its pretty likely that what you are seeing at present is close to as good as gets

3. Comparison to Cahill  - Well lets just say as a raw young player Cahill still commanded a fee of £5m - and was always robust in the tackle. By comparison Clark is lightweight in the tackle. He's struggling to hold a candle to Liam Ridgewell let alone Cahill 

4.Intelligent footballer ? - In what way ? - he got caught in possession against man city - weeks later did exactly the same thing while playing for Ireland.

 

Clark at best looks like a back up player for us. Yeah he was a very highly rated teenager - but he progressed almost zero since making his debut in 2009. I don't see any evidence at all that this guy will come good for us

 

1. How is that something to disagree with? Did I say he was a different age? 24 is young for a defender.

2. Where do you figure that you've seen his peak already at 23? That's literally what you're saying here.

3. I can't believe you seriously said he would struggle to hold a candle to Ridgewell. Very harsh, especially if you're judging him now based on what Ridgewell was when he left.

4. Intelligent, yes. He reads the game well, organises the backline, watch the games, watch the way he behaves. He wasn't randomly made captain because he's stupid and doesn't understand the game. Caught in possession is due to a lack of experience, which is only going to come with time. I just find it funny you'll say Clark's really poor for examples like this yet rate Baker because of some successful all or nothing challenges yet he, himself has made some howlers.

 

I'm a fan of both. I think they both could have long and successful careers at Villa but they are two entirely different types of defenders. You say natural defender for Baker because he throws his body at everything but there are more different qualities to a defender. I'll try and liken Baker to Vidic or Terry who Baker's style is familar to whereas Clark is more similar to a Ferdiand or maybe a Hyypia, people who read the game well.

 

I'm not saying Baker is poor, he's great with loads of potential but the comparisons are a bit odd because they're just different defenders. But by god you are being awfully critically of Clark here, if we sold him I have no doubt he's become a top defender in the league. We'd be missing an opportunity.

 

 

OK lets cut to the chase. What future do you see for Clark?

 

For me he will struggle to get games next season - this may continue for a season or two - if/when he leaves - I don't expect it to be for a club anywhere near the size of Aston Villa.

 

 

About his age - Yes 24 is young, what I mean I have not known many players be at Clarks level at 24 - then suddenly go on to be a top drawer player.

[Morpheus]

I alluded to this in another thread Smetrov.

 

Vlaar and Okore will probably be our first choice centre back partnership for next season. I'm reliably informed that Baker has signed a new contract so he is obviously staying and might get more games anyway as he can also play in the FB position but where does that leave Clark?

 

Can't see Clark getting too many games in central midfield either as we now have umpteen choices there. If Vlaar and Okore stay injury free and there's no certainty of that especially with Vlaar then Clark will probably get game time in the cups but i'm not sure he'll be happy with that having now broken into ROI team.

 

Its a difficult one. However, if we got the right offer maybe both the club and player might consider it?

[Dr_Pangloss]

He was poor last season and now has to rightly fight for his place in the first team. If he doesn't want to fight he can leave, I wouldn't be bothered either way.

[1958Villan]

I will only repeat what I said about Clark last year. 

For a player so many rate so highly, CC ends up on his backside far too easily and far too often, trying to make last ditch tackles, most of which he misses.

On the other hand Baker stays on his feet longer and only goes to ground when needed.

Clark is not now and probably never will be, a central defender. He does however show some intelligence and could develop into a useful defensive midfielder, in a few years time.

As for the comparisons to Cahill, as defenders they are probably on a par. Cahill had great status at Villa because of one game where he scored against the new enemy, I refer to B'ham City. I am of an age to remember when our rivals were WBA. 

[Dodgyknees]

a- Put him out on loan at a club in the Championship for a whole year, not a few months, so he can beef up and be battered a bit.

 

b- Keep him as back-up for the defensive midfield position.

Edited June 16, 2013 by dodgyknees

[bannedfromHandV]

I alluded to this in another thread Smetrov.

Vlaar and Okore will probably be our first choice centre back partnership for next season. I'm reliably informed that Baker has signed a new contract so he is obviously staying and might get more games anyway as he can also play in the FB position but where does that leave Clark?

Can't see Clark getting too many games in central midfield either as we now have umpteen choices there. If Vlaar and Okore stay injury free and there's no certainty of that especially with Vlaar then Clark will probably get game time in the cups but i'm not sure he'll be happy with that having now broken into ROI team.

Its a difficult one. However, if we got the right offer maybe both the club and player might consider it?

Reliably informed on Bakers new contract - by the official site and multiple other news outlets when the story broke last week by any chance?

Edited June 16, 2013 by bannedfromHandV

[Con]

If Clark's on form, he will test both Vlaar and Okore for the CB slot, as would Baker.

 

There's also the probability Lambert will use 3 CB system again - the one that worked so well last year. There could be three CB slots available in most games, if not just from the start but also at the end of a game we're winning.

 

Last year we were not able to beef up the defence toward the end of games. Next year if we don't get injuries we should have that option.

 

Plenty of opportunities for the 4 CBs to show what they can do.

[Cambridge-AVFC]

If Clark's on form, he will test both Vlaar and Okore for the CB slot, as would Baker.

 

There's also the probability Lambert will use 3 CB system again - the one that worked so well last year. There could be three CB slots available in most games, if not just from the start but also at the end of a game we're winning.

 

Last year we were not able to beef up the defence toward the end of games. Next year if we don't get injuries we should have that option.

 

Plenty of opportunities for the 4 CBs to show what they can do.

I thought we got found out playing the 5-2-3, as teams sussed out that we had no answer if they played with width

[Con]

I was being sarcastic! 

 

Apart from Liverpool game, the "3 defenders" strategy was terrible. I think Newcastle (home) first half was the last time we played that way.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

So why, exactly, will he use it again?

[SikhInTrinity]

Is Vlaar comfortable on the left side of defence though? Think it'll be Vlaar and Baker to start with.

[HeyAnty]

So why, exactly, will he use it again?

 

Reason being is that Lambert might have thought we didnt have the personel to play it last year after we proved awful when we did play it.

He might now think we have got the players in to play it.

 

I for one hope we dont go back to this formation.

[carlitobrigante]

im not sold on Clarke. Good on the ball, and in the tackle. But is still too light weight and positionally suspect at times for me.

 

If we play a back 4 with him and Bennet, we are so easy to bully by the stronger teams.

[StefanAVFC]

im not sold on Clarke. 

 

Me neither. Started well at WBA but tailed off badly.

[Con]

It will be Vlaar + best pre-season form.

 

 

So why, exactly, will he use it again?

 

the way the game has evolved. three CBs used at the right time can be a very strong system if your opponents are playing attacking, with two strikers, and are not good on the counter-attack. 3-5-2 / 3-2-3-1 / 3-5-1-1 / 3-4-2-1 > 4-4-2 / 4-3-3. the Liverpool game showed this: we played 3-5-2 against 4-3-3.

 

3-5-2 gives you 2 attacking wing-backs, so you are strong on the counter-attack and have an extra defender when defending. two of your three CBs mark the strikers while the third can watch out for the opposition's "hole". on attack, this player is talented enough to push up and give you the extra-man in midfield.

 

the system is weak when your opponents play 1 striker because then two of your CBs are marking 1 player. that is very inefficient and makes you weak in midfield. when you are on the attack this system also gives the opposition space out-wide behind your wing-backs, so the opposition can play counter-attack if you become dominant or chase the game. this is especially effective if your inexperienced defenders get their positioning wrong.

 

we played 3-5-2 variants against Liverpool (away) W 1-3, Chelsea (away) L 0-8, Tottenham (home) L 0-4, West Brom (away - we began the game 3-4-2-1 but may have changed with Baker's injury very early on) and Newcastle (home) L-2-1.

 

against Newcastle and Chelsea we had 3 CBs defending 1 striker. we drew against West Brom but that may have been with a different system. we lost badly to a Tottenham 4-4-2 (Defoe and Adebayor) playing a 3-5-1-1 but that was directly after the Chelsea debacle and Herd was used as a make-shift CB. Bale scored a hattrick from the wing. in our victory over Liverpool, our opponents were playing 4-3-3.

 

the Villa squad has now a good selection of defenders to play 3-5-2 so I expect Lambert to use it again.

 

In a 3 CB system we now have two playmaking defenders to choose from: Okore or Clark.  Baker is a traditional, marking defender. Vlaar can step into midfield as he showed against Sunderland but as a rule Lambert probably wouldn't want him there so he would be used as the other traditional defender in the 3-5-2. Okore / Clark also provide injury/form cover for our traditional CBs.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Con

[HalfTimePost]

Saw this yesterday, lol'd.

 

https://twitter.com/HarrySilk/status/346232196459286528/photo/1

[Kingfisher]

Lambert does change tactics to suit games, I'd be surprised if we didn't see 3 at the back again. 4-3-3 and in its variations will be our main formation.