Davkaus Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I've not watched this ITV drama yet, but from what I've read, while the former Post Office CEO (for 7 years) Paula Vennells seems to come out of it very badly, the former Royal Mail CEO (for 7 years) Adam Crozier who later went on to become the CEO of ITV doesn't seem to get a mention? Coincidence I'm sure. Sadly he doesn't have a gong to start a petition about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 8 Moderator Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, Davkaus said: Yeah, I was reading a bit about that a few weeks ago, the presumed accuracy of any IT system, designed to basically get the coppers off the hook from having to calibrate their speed cameras. Not sure if that's still on the statute books but if it is, it needs to go. The immediate response of anyone who's spent more than a week involved in professional software development being asked "would you confidently state in court that your application has no bugs" would be astonishment and "absolutely not". All software has bugs, and we know we haven't found them all yet. Like the reporting software that ANPR cameras use to issue private parking invoices. I deal with those daily, now I can prove that the cars weren’t there the whole time, I often wonder now many other people can prove they didn’t leave their car in that location over the allotted time. In fact I've thought of a new strategy to deal with these scumbags today but hey that’s a completely different computer says / private prosecution conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lichfield Dean Posted January 9 VT Supporter Share Posted January 9 Very important reporting from the BBC about a James Blunt museum in a phone box and an in depth interview with a woman named Karen who doesn't want to visit it. Quote James Blunt praises phone box museum in his honour Singer James Blunt has given two thumbs up to a miniature museum created in his honour. Images of the unassuming landmark, located inside a phone box, were posted by locals who noticed the new offering in rural Herefordshire. Featured among its displays are top facts about Blunt, including that he used to be in the army but left because he didn't like it. Sharing the post, the musician said: "Completely forgot to announce the opening of this fantastic cultural experience in glorious Herefordshire. Free entry for both my fans." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4nyv2kk407o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 You would think, regarding the Post Office scandal, that the amount of people pleading their innocence, would have been a clue that maybe there was a problem with the system that dealt with the finances. Imagine, you have led an honest life when, all of sudden, you get accused of stealing 25 grand and you have no idea how such an accusation could come your way. A typical British scandal surrounding the government, never willing to accept that they are actually the ones in the wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 9 VT Supporter Share Posted January 9 Just now, sheepyvillian said: You would think, regarding the Post Office scandal, that the amount of people pleading their innocence, would have been a clue that maybe there was a problem with the system that dealt with the finances. Imagine, you have led an honest life when, all of sudden, you get accused of stealing 25 grand and you have no idea how such an accusation could come your way. A typical British scandal surrounding the government, never willing to accept that they are actually the ones in the wrong. This is what got me. Having worked in IT, as soon as I heard about this I shrugged and said "Software glitch. Next", and assumed that would be an end to it. What I really don't understand is why, when the P.O. realised there were hundreds of cases, they told each accused that they were the only one? What did they stand to gain by lying about it? Just report it to the software suppliers - where were Fujitsu in all this? Were they notified about the errors? Because, y'know, these things happen. They would expect to have to fix major spec failures as part of their contract. It's bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 14 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: You would think, regarding the Post Office scandal, that the amount of people pleading their innocence, would have been a clue that maybe there was a problem with the system that dealt with the finances. Imagine, you have led an honest life when, all of sudden, you get accused of stealing 25 grand and you have no idea how such an accusation could come your way. A typical British scandal surrounding the government, never willing to accept that they are actually the ones in the wrong. It was a culmination on the whole of smallish discrepancies. But they kept mounting up, cover it from your pocket, cover it from your savings, cover it from a loan, at some point you might say well when do I stop, when is too much and by which time it's too late. Couple that with the belief that it's just you, no one else has reported issues. These are not PC literate people. If I had to make a guess, when the new system was being tested, I suspect the people testing the final stage probably didn't even own a computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 3 hours ago, Seat68 said: It was a culmination on the whole of smallish discrepancies. But they kept mounting up, cover it from your pocket, cover it from your savings, cover it from a loan, at some point you might say well when do I stop, when is too much and by which time it's too late. Couple that with the belief that it's just you, no one else has reported issues. These are not PC literate people. If I had to make a guess, when the new system was being tested, I suspect the people testing the final stage probably didn't even own a computer. That doesn't take away the pain of being accused of something you're completely innocent of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 3 hours ago, mjmooney said: This is what got me. Having worked in IT, as soon as I heard about this I shrugged and said "Software glitch. Next", and assumed that would be an end to it. What I really don't understand is why, when the P.O. realised there were hundreds of cases, they told each accused that they were the only one? What did they stand to gain by lying about it? Just report it to the software suppliers - where were Fujitsu in all this? Were they notified about the errors? Because, y'know, these things happen. They would expect to have to fix major spec failures as part of their contract. It's bizarre. The bureaucrats themselves should be held to account in a court of law, see how they feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 3 hours ago, mjmooney said: This is what got me. Having worked in IT, as soon as I heard about this I shrugged and said "Software glitch. Next", and assumed that would be an end to it. What I really don't understand is why, when the P.O. realised there were hundreds of cases, they told each accused that they were the only one? What did they stand to gain by lying about it? Just report it to the software suppliers - where were Fujitsu in all this? Were they notified about the errors? Because, y'know, these things happen. They would expect to have to fix major spec failures as part of their contract. It's bizarre. One of the driving factors behind launching this system in the first place was the belief within the post office that many of their sub post masters (post office branch owners who run it as a private business, as opposed to a post office employer) were cooking the books. These cases simply confirmed their suspicions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 7 hours ago, sheepyvillian said: That doesn't take away the pain of being accused of something you're completely innocent of. In no way did I imply that it did, merely pointing out some of the circumstances that got them there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Yep, if you’ve got a suspicion that many post office staff are witches and someone invents a ducking stool that proves they are witches, you don’t investigate the ducking stool. There was an article on Newsnight last night that there was a working presumption in many cases that Indian and Pakistani staff were on the take because they didn’t have ‘our’ moral standards and had to pass money back to extended families back home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 I worked at Fujitsu for 6 years. In IT. Not on the Post Office account fortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 10 VT Supporter Share Posted January 10 It's fairly damning that it took a TV dramatisation to actually get some mass movement on the Post Office scandal, when Private Eye and, to be fair, a few MPs have been banging the drum over how obviously it was a scandal and complete failure of justice, and barely anybody gave a **** and even less actually got some retribution from it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 16 minutes ago, Chindie said: It's fairly damning that it took a TV dramatisation to actually get some mass movement on the Post Office scandal, when Private Eye and, to be fair, a few MPs have been banging the drum over how obviously it was a scandal and complete failure of justice, and barely anybody gave a **** and even less actually got some retribution from it. I am in full agreement, Panorama did a documentary on this, nothing, Private Eye published articles, and still nothing. I think the difference is that ITV gave the information to people in chunks that they could understand, allowed them to put a face to it all. My hope is that the government is forced to act a lot quicker, Fujitsu are held to account a lot more than they have, that the transition to Accenture is quicker than it has been and the replacement system goes through enough piloting to ensure that any post implementation bugs are worked out and fixed. Nick Read of the Post Office has said that the rollout of the replacement will be completed in 2025, which will be supported by Accenture, but what happens if that is missed, do they continue to engage with Fujitsu? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 5 hours ago, Seat68 said: In no way did I imply that it did, merely pointing out some of the circumstances that got them there. I appreciate that, but the fact there were so many red flags in an industry that relies on the honesty of it's workers should have realised sooner something was fundamentally wrong with the system. That amount of people don't suddenly become dishonest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 10 VT Supporter Share Posted January 10 4 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: I appreciate that, but the fact there were so many red flags in an industry that relies on the honesty of it's workers should have realised sooner something was fundamentally wrong with the system. That amount of people don't suddenly become dishonest. That was exactly what I thought. Some wrong 'uns pocketing a few quid? Almost inevitable. But that many - no way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted January 10 VT Supporter Share Posted January 10 Perhaps shamefully, nearly this entire post office story has passed me by. My knowledge on the matter is - It has been dramatised with Toby Jones portraying someone. It happened a while ago. Injustice. And following on from @StefanAVFC’s reposted tweet in the baby eating thread, I know there is a man involved called Alan Bates as I initially thought they were referring to the actor who died 20 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 10 VT Supporter Share Posted January 10 46 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said: Perhaps shamefully, nearly this entire post office story has passed me by. My knowledge on the matter is - It has been dramatised with Toby Jones portraying someone. It happened a while ago. Injustice. And following on from @StefanAVFC’s reposted tweet in the baby eating thread, I know there is a man involved called Alan Bates as I initially thought they were referring to the actor who died 20 years ago. The short version The Post Office brought in a new accounting software system called Horizon, from Fujitsu. Quickly the sub post-masters and mistresses at various Post Office branches noticed discrepancies in the accounts. They notified the Post Office, who in turn said either the missing figures had to be made right (i.e. the post masters pay out of pocket to make up the missing money) or they would prosecute. That in turn leads to hundreds of Post Office employees placing themselves into severe financial stress (as the figures were sometimes on the multiple thousands) or prosecuted. As a result, thousands of lives are ruined either through debt, divorce, criminal conviction, imprisonment... and 4 suicides. Subsequently it's been discovered that the software was riddled with issues, it's implementation was a joke and the equipment and training was not up to such a task, and as such almost all the convictions, and other life ruining issues experienced by all those Post Office staff, were all based on a falsehood. The problem wasn't an absurdly large number of Post Office staff on the take, it was the completely botched implementation of a bad software system. A group of those affected by the scandal, over a very long period, took the Post Office to court, and they eventually won about 5 years ago. The figure they won, £50m odd, however, was essentially completely wiped out by the legal costs and the convictions etc weren't quashed, and nobody at the Post Office has been held accountable. There might be some people at Fujitsu who have their day in court though, as it appears they actively lied when appearing as witnesses in the various court cases. But still it won't change much. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 It's sickening that Sunak is now coming out trying to get the credit for finally sorting the compensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 10 Moderator Share Posted January 10 2 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: It's sickening that Sunak is now coming out trying to get the credit for finally sorting the compensation. watch it do absolutely nothing to the polls 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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