MON stay or go

[banny73]

In all fairness, you have to give credit to those who wanted him out at the end of last season, still wanting him out now.

At least they're not fickle.

I would also guess that at some point in the season, should we be up there challenging, they may have to reassess their stance ...

No, they're not fickle, just thick

[holtender1987]

Stay! ALL THE WAY!

The man is doing our club proud with the way we are going about our business! IN EVERY SENSE!

[Neil]

Stay - and our fans, like those of our rivlas, will have to accept we will never win the league whilst money rules and we do not have a mega-rich owner.

I am not suggesting Randy should leave either, just fans have realistic expectations rather than harp on about winning the league and European Cup thirty years ago. A fine achievement to remember and celebrate nevertheless.

Oh right, never knew that was written in stone. I think I'll just hand my season ticket back in as there seems to be no point in going as theres no hope for us anyway.

[barry'sboots]

I voted go the last time and i am voting go this time. Just don't think we play the type of football that should grace Villa Park. I don't think we will gain the success we all crave playing the Martin O'Neill way and he has wasted millions on transfers. He has taken 4 years to build a solid defence and we still lack creativity in midfield and that 20 goals a season striker. Even when such a striker becomes available, he refuses to buy him. Bent's success at Sunderland should be giving O'Neill nightmares and that very player might jump up and bite O'Neill in the arse!

I want to see the type of football that 'Big Ron's' 90s team played and gained success with it. 'Big Ron' had an eye for the player who could do that something extra and win matches. Martin O'Neill views that type of player with suspicion and although we have gained some very creditable results and league finishes, i do believe with a more forward thinking manager at the helm, we would as far as quality of squad and Cup success is concerned, be much further forward.

I hope i have to eat a huge lump of humble pie at some stage inside the next year which will end the 'five year plan.' However, i sincerely doubt it and i believe O'Neill has taken us as far as he can!

I agree!

IMO our performances have not been top4 or Champions League class.

And I think Big Ron's style of play was fantastic!

And I too hope you have to eat a huge lump of humble pie at some stage - although I'll be eating the same pie myself.

But I'm still voting for MON to stay!

I want to see if MON is right, I want to see how far he can take us. I want to see if it still can be done by Ron Saunders's style.

Because I don't think we'll ever be spending the same amount of money on one single player than those big4 clubs, and pay huge wages.

I believe MON and RL have the same vision. Instead of big star players, buy youth and hidden talent.

But I don't think our recent signings are that great. They haven't shown me anything special yet. And I won't be fooled by a couple of goals scored by CBs. I need more evidence on their quality. (Further pie eating?)

I see much of the logic in both of your arguments, although I disagree in a few areas.

I am a reserved stay.

I think MON has some fantastic strengths - man management, motivation, he is clearly bright and likeable. Unlike you two I think he has built a good squad considering his budget. I am impressed with what he has pulled together and very much like the 22 or so players we have and how they integrate. I think, for much less money than virtually all of our rivals, he has pulled together a squad that can certainly challenge the big 4. Results against Plop, Chelski and Citeh have proven this as did our run up until January last season. Sure, I would have liked an extra attacking option, say Tuncay maybe even as a short term option for this season.

So why the reservation? I think MON has weaknesses that I don't see him addressing. He is very inflexible in his formations and his substitutions and I can quote, as we all probably could, a number of instances of this:

- as you point out there were a number of instances last season when we were leading and MON needed to make a substitution as we were tiring badly and starting to get overrun (Man U A, Stoke H, West Ham H) and this season (Rapid Vienna, Citeh and nearly Chelsea) but he refuses to shore things up to close out a game and only seems comfortable subbing JC for Emile and tinkering with the side.

- we now have a squad with players for every position yet he still insists on playing people out of position.

- I find his treatment of NRC bizarre. He clearly didn't fancy him last season as he never gave him one game in his true position. I personally rate him and think there aren't many better, at doing what he does, in the Premier League. But if MON doesn't fancy him I can understand this but why not sell him in the summer and bring in a body that he will use that can do something similar. I personally think every team needs a spoiler, particularly if you are playing 4-4-2.

- After the great pre-season we had (after Stan was injured) I find it bizarre that he went into the Wigan game with a completely new CM pairing. I also find it odd that he didn't change, or supplement, that pairing earlier in that game.

- I also thought that we needed a tougher midfield, either a pairing or possibly three, to go to Blackburn who themselves are spoilers. He didn't, which was fair enough, but I would have thought that after 45 mins to and hour he would have seen that the forwards weren't in it and we needed to change our tactics.

I personally feel that if MON were more alive to these situations and used his squad better we would be top of the league at the minute with a nearly perfect record and still in Europe. So, to me, my frustrations feel very odd because I think he has done, in many ways, a fantastic job but it could be so much better and almost beyond what I dare dream about.

I also feel that many other top managers are culpable of the same thing - Rafa picks bizzare teams, Wenger refuses to buy an "enforcer", Ancelotti plays 4-4-2 when I think the Chelski squad and Lampard dictates a 4-3-3.

What a great game and I love the fact that some people are prepared to debate this. I thought this thread would be overrun by the "How can you question MON's brilliance?" brigade but it seems to be a good read with people expressing their views and all of us, hopefully, looking to see the Villa move forward.

[Maradona10]

Against Man United last year away, he brought on NRC which many people seem to forget and we still lost.

[Big_John_10]

'Big John' value your opinion like i do everyone else's on here. Firstly if you think Cuellar is a RB then i don't wish to debate further on that point.

Secondly, i'm certainly not trying to be arrogant about Petrov, just observant and it is what i have seen.

Thirdly, purchasing a striker who doesn't score no matter what his presence is, is a bloody joke. Strikers must be able to score, Heskey can't on a regular basis!

8.5m on a midfielder who O'Neill won't play in my book is a total waste of anyone's money!

Finally, at least we agree on Europe.

I don't think cuellar is a RB but he has played there and we have the best defensive record in the prem so it can't always be a disaster when players play out of position. Other big teams with better squads than us still have to do it at times.

I just think it's a little arrogant to claim that you can clearly see from your seat in the stand or from the tv that petrov is knackered and needs to be replaced but the manager can't. I have to say i don't agree with this view that petrov is done by the last 20 minutes and i don't think it's a fact that can be used to slate the manager with.

If a better striker than heskey was available and interested i'm sure we would have made a move. We needed a striker, heskey was playing well for wigan at the time and got back into the england side. It hasn't worked but even the best managers make mistakes when signing players.

NRC has played before and has helped us achieve two top 6 finishes. He isn't playing at the moment because he isn't needed. I'd say having an £8.5 million pound player on the bench shows our squad has improved. I'm sure some will tell me he should be coming on but at the moment results are going well and NRC isn't in the team.

Against Man United last year away, he brought on NRC which many people seem to forget and we still lost.

That is utter shit, i know for a fact that whenever NRC just looks at the pitch every other player turns into ronaldo and we never give the ball away.

[tinker]

We would have to drop Petrov to fit NRC in and that ain't gonna happen. Sidwell offers us a different type of outlet to either Petrov or NRC. Heskey, for all his faults, has only been at Villa for half a season, he still has time to turn his Villa career around, just like Petrov did.

NRC will get his chance, probably against Sunderland, he needs to sit tight and keep his head down. How many matches have we won with Petrov staying on till the end, quite a few. We could have brought NRC on and lost or drawn these matches.

[Risso]

Heskey, for all his faults, has only been at Villa for half a season, he still has time to turn his Villa career around, just like Petrov did.

Or he might not, just like Harewood didn't. The thing is, petrov always had the ability to be the player we need, Heskey doesn't. When was the last time Heskey scored more than 10 goals in a season, in all competitions? As we don't play with attacking central midfielders, just how do you think that Heskey is going to start turning things round?

[under_the_bridge]

Heskey was always going to be back up for Carew.

Anyway, people who voted him to go, while entitled to their opinions are misguided. He is one of the best managers in Britain at the moment.

[tinker]

Or he might not, just like Harewood didn't. The thing is, petrov always had the ability to be the player we need, Heskey doesn't. When was the last time Heskey scored more than 10 goals in a season, in all competitions? As we don't play with attacking central midfielders, just how do you think that Heskey is going to start turning things round?

Petrov did always had the ability, but him turning it around was not predicted by many and it took him a bit longer than 6 months.

As for the attacking central midfielders, we have Sidwell in that role now, how many games have they played together? Im not sure, plus with Downing to come in we will be changing our system and it just might be that MON has plans to play to Heskeys strengths when this happens.

My point is that even if Heskey, Knight and a few others were brought in Haste (and in error), MON has noted the mistake and rectified it and if the purchase of Heskey, Knight........ are given as reasons for MON to go , then it is a poor argument IMO.

MON has faults and one of them IMO is his stubbornness, but he does seem to get it right more than most. The transfer windows are very frustrating and MON has a history with Celtic that reflects this, their fans only real gripe of him.

If some Villa fans cannot back him now, who could they back and under what circumstances? I for one would rather be in our position than Arsenals ATM (CL aside). We are nearly there and after 3 years and from 16th position thats good going IMO. UTV

[barry'sboots]

Against Man United last year away, he brought on NRC which many people seem to forget and we still lost.

Yes, but he took off Milner and bought Nigel on to RM. I would have thought a more appropriate sub was NRC on to shore up the tiring midfield and go 4-5-1. Milner could still have gone off if knackered with Gabby pushed out wide.

I just think it's a little arrogant to claim that you can clearly see from your seat in the stand or from the tv that petrov is knackered and needs to be replaced but the manager can't.

I don't think this is arrogant at all. There were a number of games last year where Stan tired dramatically in the last 20 minutes and could hardly walk, let alone run. If he was to stay on for those games I believe that him and Gareth should have at least been supplemented by a third CM and a switch to 4-5-1. I believe that the stats will show that we conceded a lot of possession/territory and consequently goals in the latter stages of those games in the 15 game run. And CM was our strongest area with Nigel, Sidders and Gardner on the bench. I think Stan has tired in games this season (Rapid Vienna and Citeh in particular) and the team would have benefitted from the CM being, at the least, supplemented with another body. We know that our guys can make a 4-5-1 work well, the question has always been could we break a team down playing that at home? Well we don't need to when we are in front and they have to attack and we could actually use this formation to counterattack?

NRC has played before and has helped us achieve two top 6 finishes. He isn't playing at the moment because he isn't needed. I'd say having an £8.5 million pound player on the bench shows our squad has improved.

I think NRC was good value and is a very useful player, but I would always look to have a player like that in my side i.e. an energetic grafter. I do think MON has a problem with him though - not one minute of a game in CM for the whole of last season even when we were only winning two in 15 suggests to me that he doesn't fancy him. Great pre-season run and then dropped to make way for Stan first game of the season as soon as he is supposedly fit is more proof for me. That being the case, I think he should have been sold in the summer and replaced with a player that MON did fancy? MON's approach, IMO, was probably at the heart of NRCs frustration that caused him to respond the way he did and led to the bust up. To me we are probably looking at a forced sale at a below market value in January or, at a minimum, we have been a player down for the last 4 or 5 games. I really don't get this.

[dappadan]

Sorry BB if Stan is so knackered he can hardly walk it is his duty as captain to let the boss know this and get himself fit.

[briny_ear]

The "MON go" side are up to 10 now.

One more & they could maybe form a football team and put their great knowledge and wisdom about tactics/formations etc. into actual practice.

There, they've got their eleven now, so they can field a side. Just need some people for the bench...

[TRO]

I voted go the last time and i am voting go this time. Just don't think we play the type of football that should grace Villa Park. I don't think we will gain the success we all crave playing the Martin O'Neill way and he has wasted millions on transfers. He has taken 4 years to build a solid defence and we still lack creativity in midfield and that 20 goals a season striker. Even when such a striker becomes available, he refuses to buy him. Bent's success at Sunderland should be giving O'Neill nightmares and that very player might jump up and bite O'Neill in the arse!

I want to see the type of football that 'Big Ron's' 90s team played and gained success with it. 'Big Ron' had an eye for the player who could do that something extra and win matches. Martin O'Neill views that type of player with suspicion and although we have gained some very creditable results and league finishes, i do believe with a more forward thinking manager at the helm, we would as far as quality of squad and Cup success is concerned, be much further forward.

I hope i have to eat a huge lump of humble pie at some stage inside the next year which will end the 'five year plan.' However, i sincerely doubt it and i believe O'Neill has taken us as far as he can!

I agree!

IMO our performances have not been top4 or Champions League class.

And I think Big Ron's style of play was fantastic!

And I too hope you have to eat a huge lump of humble pie at some stage - although I'll be eating the same pie myself.

But I'm still voting for MON to stay!

I want to see if MON is right, I want to see how far he can take us. I want to see if it still can be done by Ron Saunders's style.

Because I don't think we'll ever be spending the same amount of money on one single player than those big4 clubs, and pay huge wages.

I believe MON and RL have the same vision. Instead of big star players, buy youth and hidden talent.

But I don't think our recent signings are that great. They haven't shown me anything special yet. And I won't be fooled by a couple of goals scored by CBs. I need more evidence on their quality. (Further pie eating?)

I see much of the logic in both of your arguments, although I disagree in a few areas.

I am a reserved stay.

I think MON has some fantastic strengths - man management, motivation, he is clearly bright and likeable. Unlike you two I think he has built a good squad considering his budget. I am impressed with what he has pulled together and very much like the 22 or so players we have and how they integrate. I think, for much less money than virtually all of our rivals, he has pulled together a squad that can certainly challenge the big 4. Results against Plop, Chelski and Citeh have proven this as did our run up until January last season. Sure, I would have liked an extra attacking option, say Tuncay maybe even as a short term option for this season.

So why the reservation? I think MON has weaknesses that I don't see him addressing. He is very inflexible in his formations and his substitutions and I can quote, as we all probably could, a number of instances of this:

- as you point out there were a number of instances last season when we were leading and MON needed to make a substitution as we were tiring badly and starting to get overrun (Man U A, Stoke H, West Ham H) and this season (Rapid Vienna, Citeh and nearly Chelsea) but he refuses to shore things up to close out a game and only seems comfortable subbing JC for Emile and tinkering with the side.

- we now have a squad with players for every position yet he still insists on playing people out of position.

- I find his treatment of NRC bizarre. He clearly didn't fancy him last season as he never gave him one game in his true position. I personally rate him and think there aren't many better, at doing what he does, in the Premier League. But if MON doesn't fancy him I can understand this but why not sell him in the summer and bring in a body that he will use that can do something similar. I personally think every team needs a spoiler, particularly if you are playing 4-4-2.

- After the great pre-season we had (after Stan was injured) I find it bizarre that he went into the Wigan game with a completely new CM pairing. I also find it odd that he didn't change, or supplement, that pairing earlier in that game.

- I also thought that we needed a tougher midfield, either a pairing or possibly three, to go to Blackburn who themselves are spoilers. He didn't, which was fair enough, but I would have thought that after 45 mins to and hour he would have seen that the forwards weren't in it and we needed to change our tactics.

I personally feel that if MON were more alive to these situations and used his squad better we would be top of the league at the minute with a nearly perfect record and still in Europe. So, to me, my frustrations feel very odd because I think he has done, in many ways, a fantastic job but it could be so much better and almost beyond what I dare dream about.

I also feel that many other top managers are culpable of the same thing - Rafa picks bizzare teams, Wenger refuses to buy an "enforcer", Ancelotti plays 4-4-2 when I think the Chelski squad and Lampard dictates a 4-3-3.

What a great game and I love the fact that some people are prepared to debate this. I thought this thread would be overrun by the "How can you question MON's brilliance?" brigade but it seems to be a good read with people expressing their views and all of us, hopefully, looking to see the Villa move forward.

you have saved me a lot of finger ache.....I agree with you to a word.

it is all about opinions as you say, its just that i happen to mirror your views.... good post.

[MrDuck]

Bringing on a player like NRC to "shore up the centre midfield" in the last 10-20 minutes can be a very dangerous game... it's not easy to come on and step right into a game, especially towards the end. Usually takes some time to adjust to the tempo, and this is when you're likely to make a costly mistake, which you don't want in the closing minutes of the game.

Stan tired a lot last season I think because Barry could be very lazy at times with regards defensive duties, and left a lot of hard work for Stan. This season he is running the game for us, everything goes through him - if you take him off for the last 15 it leaves a huge hole, especially if you replace him with a player like NRC... who for all his energy and fight is not the best at retaining possession. I think this is why MON doesn't go down this route.

A better bet is to bring on NRC for a forward instead... and I think the reason this hasn't been happening is because our games have been pretty tight so far and MON wants players on the pitch more likely to give him a goal. Even Heskey is more likely to do that than NRC.

[TRO]

Bringing on a player like NRC to "shore up the centre midfield" in the last 10-20 minutes can be a very dangerous game... it's not easy to come on and step right into a game, especially towards the end. Usually takes some time to adjust to the tempo, and this is when you're likely to make a costly mistake, which you don't want in the closing minutes of the game.

Stan tired a lot last season I think because Barry could be very lazy at times with regards defensive duties, and left a lot of hard work for Stan. This season he is running the game for us, everything goes through him - if you take him off for the last 15 it leaves a huge hole, especially if you replace him with a player like NRC... who for all his energy and fight is not the best at retaining possession. I think this is why MON doesn't go down this route.

A better bet is to bring on NRC for a forward instead... and I think the reason this hasn't been happening is because our games have been pretty tight so far and MON wants players on the pitch more likely to give him a goal. Even Heskey is more likely to do that than NRC.

I agree with a lot of what you say.... my view is if I was playing Nigel it would be from the start.

In the same way De jong( ball winner) started for Man city and then Ireland( schemer) replaced him.

Having said all that it depends on the opposition and how the manager see's the game and what is required during the game, i.e shut up shop or going for the winner.

I'm just glad I'm not the one with the responsibility to have to choose, as i guess it is a thankless task.

[dalyvilla]

I voted go the last time and i am voting go this time. Just don't think we play the type of football that should grace Villa Park. I don't think we will gain the success we all crave playing the Martin O'Neill way and he has wasted millions on transfers. He has taken 4 years to build a solid defence and we still lack creativity in midfield and that 20 goals a season striker. Even when such a striker becomes available, he refuses to buy him. Bent's success at Sunderland should be giving O'Neill nightmares and that very player might jump up and bite O'Neill in the arse!

I want to see the type of football that 'Big Ron's' 90s team played and gained success with it. 'Big Ron' had an eye for the player who could do that something extra and win matches. Martin O'Neill views that type of player with suspicion and although we have gained some very creditable results and league finishes, i do believe with a more forward thinking manager at the helm, we would as far as quality of squad and Cup success is concerned, be much further forward.

I hope i have to eat a huge lump of humble pie at some stage inside the next year which will end the 'five year plan.' However, i sincerely doubt it and i believe O'Neill has taken us as far as he can!

just nearly choked

[Risso]

Try a bit harder next time then.

[sled]

Indeed.

Step 1

Step 2

Step 3

Step 4

[briny_ear]

Indeed.

Step 1

Step 2

Step 3

Step 4

Quality!