Ratings & Reactions: Man Utd v Villa

[M_Afro]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

We don't need to study stats to understand from 2-0 up in 25 minutes, the game should have been ours.

Stats mean nothing if you dont win the 3 points.

I’m actually saying that you should base your reaction on the game not the result and then using stats to underpin my point. You need both to add real context.

Why should the game have been ours? Utd lose very few at home. According to MOTD, they have not lost at home on Boxing Day since the seventies! Utd also have some very good players capable of hurting anyone. We had chances to kill the game. We didn’t take them. They took theirs. We lost. We move on.

How many times have we been to Old Trafford in the past 40 years and felt genuinely aggrieved that we lost?  The answer is once. We have had lots of decent backs to the walls performances but never have we been able to compete on an almost equal footing as we did yesterday. It really wasn’t that bad.

[Aston_Villan4]

10 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I think we can play the same way and we did for large parts against City and Arsenal. 
 
The mistake comes from thinking our bench can play the same way too.  
 
Too much trust in our bench players or too stubborn from Unai into thinking we can still play the “Unai” way? Time will tell. 

This is my thought on it. I feel like Unai had too much trust in that group of players getting themselves out of the hole they were digging.

[foreveryoung]

Just now, M_Afro said:

I’m actually saying that you should base your reaction on the game not the result and then using stats to underpin my point. You need both to add real context.

Why should the game have been ours? Utd lose very few at home. According to MOTD, they have not lost at home on Boxing Day since the seventies! Utd also have some very good players capable of hurting anyone. We had chances to kill the game. We didn’t take them. They took theirs. We lost. We move on.

How many times have we been to Old Trafford in the past 40 years and felt genuinely aggrieved that we lost?  The answer is once. We have had lots of decent backs to the walls performances but never have we been able to compete on an almost equal footing as we did yesterday. It really wasn’t that bad.

It was that bad.

An I base my reaction on weather we win or lose, not stats.

We have lost at old Traford loads yes, but we are 3rd in the league went 2-0 up in 25 minutes against a Man U team who have been relatively poor this season, not scoring even 1 goal in 480 minutes and a 70 million striker who hadn't yet scored in the Prem.

Obviously us being the Villa, lied on our backs, while they got all that back, then watched our goal keeper rub salt in our wounds by helping the scorer of 2 of the goals relieve his cramp. What a night to remember hey!

[smokingzen]

19 minutes ago, Captain_Townsend said:

Last season when 2-2 v Arsenal we stopped doing what Emery asked and lost 4-2.

We now do what Emery instructs and sit 3rd in the league at the half way point.

When are people going to realise this is our style and one bad result isn't going to change that. 

When are people going to realise overly simplistic comparisons or "analysis" don't really enlighten us on a subject.

Emery has a core style of play he likes to predominantly utilise, he has however by his own admission not only tweaked this on many occasions but also played some quite different formations, stlyes and tactics dependant on the opposition and which players we have available.

Last night was one of those times he didn't (or at least if he tried to it didn't work) and we lost a 2 - 0 lead in the 2nd half when IMO the writing was on the wall by the end of the first half that we were going to suffer if we didn't change tactics, because we we suffering against the high press.

Emery is a great manager and we're very lucky to have him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes, all managers do, even Pep or Klopp.

[M_Afro]

Just now, foreveryoung said:

It was that bad.

An I base my reaction on weather we win or lose, not stats.

We have lost at old Traford loads yes, but we are 3rd in the league went 2-0 up in 25 minutes against a Man U team who have been relatively poor this season, not scoring even 1 goal in 480 minutes and a 70 million striker who hadn't yet scored in the Prem.

Obviously us being the Villa, lied on our backs, while they got all that back, then watched our goal keeper rub salt in our wounds by helping the scorer of 2 of the goals relieve his cramp. What a night to remember hey!

You need a lie down mate. That level of stress is not good for anyone. We are having an unbelievable season. Enjoy it (even the rubbish bits). That was our first defeat in 11 matches. We’ll bounce back.

[smokingzen]

41 minutes ago, Tayls said:

Was the change made in the 30th minute because that’s when it all went downhill? 

But it didn't though did it, it wen't down hill in the 2nd half and in the 59th or 71st minutes.

Yes from the 30th minute to the end of the first half Man U started to get on top of us with the high press and that should have been the catalyst for us to change things tactically for the 2nd half.

[DJBOB]

8 minutes ago, smokingzen said:

When are people going to realise overly simplistic comparisons or "analysis" don't really enlighten us on a subject.

Emery has a core style of play he likes to predominantly utilise, he has however by his own admission not only tweaked this on many occasions but also played some quite different formations, stlyes and tactics dependant on the opposition and which players we have available.

Last night was one of those times he didn't (or at least if he tried to it didn't work) and we lost a 2 - 0 lead in the 2nd half when IMO the writing was on the wall by the end of the first half that we were going to suffer if we didn't change tactics, because we we suffering against the high press.

Emery is a great manager and we're very lucky to have him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes, all managers do, even Pep or Klopp.

All this right here. Unai is not invincible. The way he didn’t make changes when the writing was on the wall was very curious. 
 
It’s a dumb barometer but as the second half started, even the United fans I was in the pub with was saying that we needed to make changes. 
 
And we didn’t. 
 
That Unai usually recognizes the problems, admits the mistakes, and changes them is a great skill of his. One that the majority of our previous managers  were unable to do. 
 
 

[ChicagoVillan1983]

What a complete load of rocket polishers you all are. Total and complete overreaction - you sound like whining Spurs fans.

It was clear that the players that came in were not anywhere near as good as our first choice for the city game. I'm still enraged at Kamara/ Emi for that stupid sending off. I seriously believe the Sheffield game we win with him in the side.

Pau/ Tielimans were massive misses too. 
 

Yeah it's frustrating - but to be saying we're back to old Villa after a couple of bad games when our first choice 11 is depleted is a bunch of nonsense. Somebody needs to knock your heads together...

Unai didn't have much to work with to change it up when things weren't working.

It's more annoying because we looked so good for the first 25 minutes and then just sat back. But holy heck - to those of you saying we're back to old Villa given where we are in the table, well, you're idiots.

Edited December 27, 2023 by ChicagoVillan1983

[Tayls]

41 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

All this right here. Unai is not invincible. The way he didn’t make changes when the writing was on the wall was very curious. 
 
It’s a dumb barometer but as the second half started, even the United fans I was in the pub with was saying that we needed to make changes. 
 
And we didn’t. 
 
That Unai usually recognizes the problems, admits the mistakes, and changes them is a great skill of his. One that the majority of our previous managers  were unable to do. 
 
 

One plan… 

Is there an example where we were being completely out played, changed our game plan, and then gone on to win? I’m not referring to games where we have looked like the better side, gone behind, but then gone on to win… I want examples of us doing what Man U did yesterday… 

As far as I am concerned others that have done it to us are, Liverpool, Newcastle and Nottingham Forest. We failed to change during the game. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Tayls

[switters]

Just now, Tayls said:

One plan… 

Is there an example where we were being completely out played, changed our game plan, and then gone on to win? I’m not referring to games where we have looked like the better side, gone behind, but then gone on to win… I want examples of what Man U did to us yesterday… 

Man Utd didn't particularly change their game plan. They were pressing high and looking to get behind quickly all game long. First half the offside trap worked and they didn't take the chances that came, 2nd half they did.

[DJBOB]

1 minute ago, Tayls said:

One plan… 

Is there an example where we were being completely out played, changed our game plan, and then gone on to win? I’m not referring to games where we have looked like the better side, gone behind, but then gone on to win… I want examples of what Man U did to us yesterday… 

I mean if you want Unai out, you can just say it. 
 
Against Arsenal at home, he dropped Kamara into the back 5 to track runs and nullified their threat in the second half. 
 
At Tottenham away, he introduced Tielemans to regain midfield control and we went on to score with his assist to Watkins.

Against Mostar at home, he moved Tielemans to build out on the right which gave us the overloads we needed for Cash to cross for the winner. 
 
That he didn’t make any changes was an abnormality. 
 

 
 

[Follyfoot]

1 minute ago, switters said:

Man Utd didn't particularly change their game plan. They were pressing high and looking to get behind quickly all game long. First half the offside trap worked and they didn't take the chances that came, 2nd half they did.

And we didn’t take our chances that’s the difference

[nick76]

9 minutes ago, Tayls said:

One plan… 

Is there an example where we were being completely out played, changed our game plan, and then gone on to win? I’m not referring to games where we have looked like the better side, gone behind, but then gone on to win… I want examples of us doing what Man U did yesterday… 

As far as I am concerned, Liverpool have done it, Newcastle have done it, and Nottingham Forest have done it. We failed to change. 

Spurs recently, we took off Cash and Diaby at half time for Tielemans and Bailey, changed game plan and slightly our style and won 2-1.  We did get the equaliser in stoppage time first half though but we were different/better second half but battered first half.

Edited December 27, 2023 by nick76

[skarroki]

10 minutes ago, Tayls said:

One plan… 

Is there an example where we were being completely out played, changed our game plan, and then gone on to win? I’m not referring to games where we have looked like the better side, gone behind, but then gone on to win… I want examples of us doing what Man U did yesterday… 

As far as I am concerned others that have done it to us are, Liverpool, Newcastle and Nottingham Forest. We failed to change during the game. 

Palace at home? Duran slapping that thunderbolt in when it looked like the winning run was coming to an end 

[switters]

Suspect the main reason he didn't make changes earlier yesterday was simply the options available. He didn't have anyone on bench to bring on and take back some control of midfield, which is what we needed.

Zaniolo/Duran/Diaby all attacking players foremost. Iroegbunam was the only centre midfielder, and he hasn't had a run for months, so could hardly expect him to turn the tide in a game like that.

[lexicon]

7 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I mean if you want Unai out, you can just say it. 
 
Against Arsenal at home, he dropped Kamara into the back 5 to track runs and nullified their threat in the second half. 
 
At Tottenham away, he introduced Tielemans to regain midfield control and we went on to score with his assist to Watkins.

Against Mostar at home, he moved Tielemans to build out on the right which gave us the overloads we needed for Cash to cross for the winner. 
 
That he didn’t make any changes was an abnormality. 
 

 

We didn't exactly have many options when it came to making changes to sort out the defence. Chambers isn't particularly good, Torres probably shouldn't even have been on the bench and Moreno is an attacking wing-back. We had to start Dendoncker ffs 

It's amazing that we're seeing a level of entitlement (not talking about you when I say this) where we go out to Old Trafford with several players out and expect to just steamroller through them. 

[smokingzen]

5 minutes ago, switters said:

He didn't have anyone on bench to bring on and take back some control of midfield, which is what we needed.

Agree, so that's where sometimes you need to bypass midfield and utlise pace in the space behind.

[KentVillan]

I think Unai is a bit of a victim here of elevated expectations of this Villa squad and suppressed expectations of Man Utd at Old Trafford (traditionally an impossible fixture for the past 20 years!) which have made that loss seem much more surprising and painful than it would ordinarily.

Cool heads will say getting 10 points from a sequence of City, Arsenal, Brentford, Shef Utd, Man Utd is solid Champions League form.

I think we’ll find out now though how much faith this squad have in Unai. Management is a confidence trick to some extent, you need to convince the players that you are the all-seeing, all-knowing genius who can take them to a higher level.

He’ll need players like Martinez and McGinn to back him up in the dressing room this week, and a few underperformers (Ramsey, Cash, Diaby) to step up for him asap so that we can start putting points on the board again.

Now there’s a lot more focus on us and our push for Champions League football, there will be a lot more people claiming that the wheels have fallen off, that Unai doesn’t know what he’s doing, etc. You really have to force your way into that Big 6 cartel, it’s only going to get harder through the second half of the season.

My feeling is Unai will hold his nerve because he has the fans on side, and most of our players are having the best season of their careers. It’s a very different scenario from Arsenal or PSG.

[Tayls]

16 minutes ago, skarroki said:

Palace at home? Duran slapping that thunderbolt in when it looked like the winning run was coming to an end 

Noo I think we outplayed Palace for the entire game. 

[Tayls]

20 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Spurs recently, we took off Cash and Diaby at half time for Tielemans and Bailey, changed game plan and slightly our style and won 2-1.  We did get the equaliser in stoppage time first half though but we were different/better second half but battered first half.

Fair example.