villa4europe Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 9 minutes ago, Philosopher said: Chris Heck doesn't understand the football culture. He is making very American decisions on things, but this isn't America. This is a sport and club with more history than all American sport put together. With a saturated market in this country but an ever expanding global market waiting to happen... None of these decisions will be for us, sad reality of it They're not doing this to make B postcode 40+ year season ticket holder die hard fans like the club a little bit more 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosopher Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just now, villa4europe said: With a saturated market in this country but an ever expanding global market waiting to happen... None of these decisions will be for us, sad reality of it They're not doing this to make B postcode 40+ year season ticket holder die hard fans like the club a little bit more But if we want more through the turnstyles we have to cater to the b postcodes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 3 minutes ago, Philosopher said: But if we want more through the turnstyles we have to cater to the b postcodes as well. That's not going to be done based on the badge and the brand That's done on winning football matches and buying "big name" footballers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyjavfc Posted January 6 VT Supporter Share Posted January 6 The use of the Lerner lion when they have a new superior lion already designed is a clear cost saving Measure. No need to change the standalone Lerner lions that exist around the ground and on our merch now. The leaked badge uses the new Aston Villa font from the round badge so they are clearly not against reusing elements of the new badge, just not the lion. I think this aspect annoys me the most. Can’t wait to see how they try to spin this when it is unveiled. I would have a lot more respect for Heck if he was honest and said it is a cost saving measure to have a badge refresh rather than redesign, so we can focus funds on our playing squad. Instead we will no doubt get some flowery marketing language about how the ‘classic’ lion has more ‘heritage’ and ‘recognition’. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 6 Moderator Share Posted January 6 12 minutes ago, Philosopher said: But if we want more through the turnstyles we have to cater to the b postcodes as well. "If". The club will make more money from having 30 million new fans in the US and Far East than it will by adding 8,000 to the capacity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: "If". The club will make more money from having 30 million new fans in the US and Far East than it will by adding 8,000 to the capacity. Yep there's your sad reality We are not the target audience of all these changes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Apologies if already posted.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosopher Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 24 minutes ago, villa4europe said: That's not going to be done based on the badge and the brand That's done on winning football matches and buying "big name" footballers That is true, but that is also the case further afield. Ultimately winning games and trophies is what will spur our growth not a badge. A badge is about history and tradition for me. This new badge is terrible, not matter how you look at it. It's a step backwards. The round badge is far superior, even the Lerner badge is better, and this is just a poor rehash of that. The Lerner badge to be fair wasn't and bad badge. This new one just wrecks the simplicity of the Lerner badge which was It's strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jayEm Posted January 6 Popular Post Share Posted January 6 36 minutes ago, A'Villan said: Apologies if already posted.. This has been posted a few times and it's beautiful but just doesn't work as a badge, it's far too details for online, wouldn't scale well and would be a bit of a nightmare to print 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosch Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, Philosopher said: Chris Heck doesn't understand the football culture. He is making very American decisions on things, but this isn't America. This is a sport and club with more history than all American sport put together. Perhaps the fast-and-loose decisionmaking seems American, but the crest under discussion is definitely not typical of the American approach to professional sports marketing. That is usually a hyper-branded, highly designed, tightly managed, high-stakes endeavor. I thought for sure we'd get something refined and original. That's why I'm in denial that this disgrace of a trademark (and so far, it is only that) is coming from an American chief. (And I'll refrain from an opposing digression into American baseball history.) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nepal_villan Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, villa4europe said: Yep there's your sad reality We are not the target audience of all these changes Please let’s not buy the narrative that this badge is done with the international fan in mind. I belong to 5 different Asian and North American Villa forums/chat groups and the great majority in each forum despise the leaked badge. “International audience” is a convenient excuse football owners/administrators use when they screw up these days. I recall the Arsenal owner saying they initially joined the Super League because that is what the majority of international Arsenal fans wanted. I actually know quite a few international Arsenal fans including two who are fan club chapter presidents and they all pretty much hated the idea of the Super League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 4 minutes ago, nepal_villan said: Please let’s not buy the narrative that this badge is done with the international fan in mind. I belong to 5 different Asian and North American Villa forums/chat groups and the great majority in each forum despise the leaked badge. “International audience” is a convenient excuse football owners/administrators use when they screw up these days. I recall the Arsenal owner saying they initially joined the Super League because that is what the majority of international Arsenal fans wanted. I actually know quite a few international Arsenal fans including two who are fan club chapter presidents and they all pretty much hated the idea of the Super League. In fairness bro, I find alot of the " International" groups are mostly Brits just living in the regions the groups are designated to? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantholtgolazo Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Some 14 year old in Cincinnati trying to figure out what premier league side to support - “hmm Aston Villa look interesting, but shouldn’t the lion be rampant, and facing the other way?” 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burchy Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) Why does the badge need to be simple, most of the other badges in the league are quite busy designs (Newcastle, Man City, etc) and they manage. Wolves has the most simple badge but their not smashing it commercially are they. Success on the pitch drives commercial growth and brand awareness. If we have elements from the badge that we can use for separate media channels, the lion, 1874, AV even, surely we’d be able to get a bit more of Aston Villa into the badge design itself. At present the basic design echos West Ham’s in its simplicity and that badge is shit IMHO. Edited January 6 by burchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
479Villan Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 hours ago, Philosopher said: Chris Heck doesn't understand the football culture. He is making very American decisions on things, but this isn't America. This is a sport and club with more history than all American sport put together. Setting aside that baseball is older than our club, the shit does this have to do with anything? You honestly think the issue with this design is that it fails to consider historical input? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeps Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Something tells me this will ramble on reading the Villa Trust article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 4 hours ago, Philosopher said: Chris Heck doesn't understand the football culture. He is making very American decisions on things, but this isn't America. This is a sport and club with more history than all American sport put together. I'm inclined to agree with the first sentence. Not sure if you can say his decisions are "very American" unless you think arrogance and poor judgment are uniquely American. Your last sentence is not accurate. Baseball and gridiron were both first played mid 19th century. Ice hockey since early 20th, and basketball mid century. If any country's sporting history rivals Britain, it is the U.S. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muller Yogurt Long Sleever Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 8 hours ago, Rolta said: Eh. If they think the Lerner v1/2 is better then they're not very good designers! (except for the drop shadow—if their objection is because of that then that's a different matter). And yes that is my opinion! I'd take the last 'Lerner' badge over the alleged new, cobbled together, imbalanced thing any day. And can confidently say I'm regarded as a good designer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Muller Yogurt Long Sleever said: I'd take the last 'Lerner' badge over the alleged new, cobbled together, imbalanced thing any day. And can confidently say I'm regarded as a good designer. Can't agree mate, I'd suggest you are more thinking with your heart over you design " head " as you're pissed off about it all. Even just glancing at them, the Lerner badge is definitely.more shite and less defined. The dropshadow ( yes I know ) at least defines the yellow lion a little more on the background. This is not me saying it's great by any means either. The monochrome versions however, are debatable. Edited January 7 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Muller Yogurt Long Sleever Posted January 7 Popular Post Share Posted January 7 Working in design and as a Villa fan, the brand identity means a huge amount and it would be a privilege to work on it. That’s why a lot of us can’t (and rightly won’t) let it lie. So a rant, albeit hopefully a constructive one. Looking back on the last two goes at it: The previous 2015/2016 version - by a top tier design agency with football club creds, almost certainly working with limitations of an evolution brief, with fan input. Not sure why the colours weren’t sorted, and the ‘Lerner’ crest certainly wasn’t universally liked; but the full lion was beautifully crafted (not so good in 2D), there was a bespoke font and iconography with claw marks and as a coherent body of work, it mostly worked. Elegant, heritage-based, but modern. Last year’s version - by a top tier design agency with football club creds, I assume working with a more open-minded brief but with fan feedback about elements, which would seem to have limited their thinking and scope somewhat. A well-drawn 2D lion, nicely crafted typeface, presented in two shape options. Fan vote was round badge - and overall it’s well-executed and works. Classic but modern. (Despite me thinking a circle isn’t right for us, but that’s just opinion.) Both would’ve come at considerable cost (although probably half of Lucas Digne’s weekly wage. Player budget vs marking budget are in different galaxies though.) But now we’re apparently being presented with something that isn’t fit for purpose nor befitting the prestige it deserves. People joke about it being made in Microsoft Paint but the crest we’re seeing, if real, is fundamentally unprofessional - cobbled together with elements from the last two efforts within a new crest shape. Arranged awkwardly and trying to solve the colour issue with a chunky drop shadow. If it’s a cost cutting exercise, there’s a good chance it was done in-house or by a cheaper-option contact, as has been suggested. (That’s not a slur on any design resource at the club, I don’t know them, their level, nor their brief; nor indeed if this is what’s happened. Nor do I know Mr.Heck, who has presumably directed and approved the alleged result. Just speculating due to the below-par execution.) All I can say is if what we’re seeing is true, it’s frustratingly not good enough. Despite my preference to not have a round badge, I’d take it all day long over what we’re apparently getting. It’ll be very interesting to see if there’s a wider set of assets released alongside the alleged new crest, such as the font and any other bits from this year’s agency effort. It may slightly rescue things. I’ve always thought the best way to do these very challenging projects is to allow a good agency to run the process, of gleaning a decent amount of fan feedback and insight to develop a solution. But from being involved in this forum, I think there’s a clear case for designer fans with the knowledge, insight and talent to collaborate on such things (as has been suggested). There are clearly people on here (doing some lovely things purely as a passion project. How cost-friendly is that?! Bound to be the same at other clubs. - AAANNNND ANOTHER THING - apart from the overall quality of design, something that really grinds my gears is that with a brand refresh coming at the same time as the 150 year anniversary, it was an opportunity to incorporate it in a new visual identity, then proudly move forward with our shiny new look. Yes the 150 is a temporary one-off, but the fact that it seemingly has no correlation whatsoever with the badge stylistically feels wrong (aside from it also being fairly illegible). - I had high hopes for Mr.Heck and have to admit I was glad things were going back to the drawing board - but again, that’s personal opinion about the brand, and a separate conversation. There was a coincidental crossover of people at the helm (Purslow-Heck), and I wanted to trust that we had someone who’d steer it in a more innovative, ownable direction whilst respecting fans and history, as much as it wasn’t a great look to change course. On the evidence so far, this is not the case. I hate being negative and don’t want to sound preachy, but it’s born out of passion and therefore frustrating. It’s mostly opinions, but they come from a decent amount of knowledge and experience. Our identity is for us to own and love, and how we present ourselves to the world. Any re-brand, re-fresh, logo change or whatever, at least needs a sound reason as well as being well executed. Not everyone will love the outcome, but at least have those. Where we allegedly are would seem to cancel any reason because it now looks like change for change’s sake, as well as being poorly made. So despite the messy process it has been, I’d rather go again and achieve something befitting of our great club. Right now it’s either have something crap which was the result of a less than ideal process, and will be largely disliked moving forward (on the evidence I’ve seen) and probably result in having to do it again sooner rather than later; vs. have something that the majority think looks great and lasts for decades, with the crap process becoming a historical footnote. (Or simply leave it at what you invested in last year.) Full judgement reserved until when things are officially released. This may well have been another pointless outburst. But on the off-chance the club are reading through this stuff - please let us help you fix it. The reactions are because this really matters. Hey we played a game of football today didn’t we? 18 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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