The_Steve Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 On 22/06/2023 at 04:35, HanoiVillan said: It may be that *I'm* confused by what 'sportswashing' means, because I don't really see how 'paying Bernardo Silva lots of money' is going to change what lots of people think about the Saudi government, in much the same way that 'paying Oscar lots of money' didn't noticeably (to me anyway) change what people thought about the Chinese government. It’s just not about that. It’s about exploiting the tribalism and emotional connection fans have to players to normalise and shut down discussions about their vast human rights abuses. Prime example is the World Cup, hundreds of migrant workers and their families are still facing horrible conditions and a lack of justice in Qatar. But, because sport is a spectacle, it's easy to forget about the structural abuses in these places. It's just not on the minds of a lot of football fans. Don't be surprised if Saudi 2030 also means a World Cup or World Club Cup hosting event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 20 minutes ago, The_Steve said: It’s just not about that. It’s about exploiting the tribalism and emotional connection fans have to players to normalise and shut down discussions about their vast human rights abuses. Prime example is the World Cup, hundreds of migrant workers and their families are still facing horrible conditions and a lack of justice in Qatar. But, because sport is a spectacle, it's easy to forget about the structural abuses in these places. It's just not on the minds of a lot of football fans. Don't be surprised if Saudi 2030 also means a World Cup or World Club Cup hosting event. They have withdrew their bid for 2030. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, duke313 said: They have withdrew their bid for 2030. Yeah, feels like they'e been reassured that they will get the 2034 WC and are withdrawing their bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 32 minutes ago, duke313 said: And how did it get such large TV deals? How did it become the most watched league in the world? Because it outspent every other league in the world for the past 20 years, that's how. When teams like Bournemouth and Fulham can outspend AC Milan, that's fine? But if upstarts Saudi Arabia start throwing money about, then all of a sudden, it's an issue? It's kind of ironic that it's mainly Sky complaining about Saudi spending, when they are the primary reason football is all about money these days. more so because 20-3 years ago while the likes of la liga still had individual deals the PL were way ahead of the curve and set all this stuff up thats why they have such an audience, the PL put the leg work in to make themselves bigger, same with corporate, marketing and partnering they didn't use their financial power to buy global superstars in the 90s and make themselves the biggest league, if anything it was the opposite, la liga and serie a had the superstars, the PL went to the likes of the US and sold themselves as a league 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 6 minutes ago, villa4europe said: more so because 20-3 years ago while the likes of la liga still had individual deals the PL were way ahead of the curve and set all this stuff up thats why they have such an audience, the PL put the leg work in to make themselves bigger, same with corporate, marketing and partnering they didn't use their financial power to buy global superstars in the 90s and make themselves the biggest league, if anything it was the opposite, la liga and serie a had the superstars, the PL went to the likes of the US and sold themselves as a league Yeah, it's all natural growth. Certainly, has nothing to do with Russian Oligarchs, Arab billionaires or American conglomerates pumping money into clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 15 minutes ago, duke313 said: Yeah, it's all natural growth. Certainly, has nothing to do with Russian Oligarchs, Arab billionaires or American conglomerates pumping money into clubs you think that the TV deal with say NBC in the states is because of Roman's money? i would disagree, the PLs success in the states is because the effort to break in to that market pre dates that, the PL had all this TV stuff nailed down long before the other leagues clocked on to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 21 minutes ago, villa4europe said: you think that the TV deal with say NBC in the states is because of Roman's money? i would disagree, the PLs success in the states is because the effort to break in to that market pre dates that, the PL had all this TV stuff nailed down long before the other leagues clocked on to it Indirectly, yes. Chelsea kicked off the spending spree we've seen over the past 20 years, with City, United etc. adding to that. With better players coming in, the stature of the league increased, thereby raising the cost of tv rights each time they are renewed. Also, you can't say that all the PL spending over the last two decades is entirely down to an increase in TV revenue. Chelsea and City certainly didn't spend only TV money to get where they are. Anyway, I don't think it really matters how the PL got so rich, the clubs are still buying who they want because no other Euro league bar a few elite teams can compete. I just think it's funny the Saudi's are doing to the PL what the PL do to everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Marco Silva wanted by Al-Hilal. They better stay away from Don Unai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 I think there’s at least a risk that saudi are trying to ‘break’ football in the same way they did the golf so that the ‘only’ viable alternative is a super league, which of course they’ll be bankrolling. If they keep purchasing clubs or investing in them through back doors (hedge funds) etc they could force football into a very uncomfortable position. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaJ100 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Hey at least there will be no booze or gambling ads in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 7 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I think there’s at least a risk that saudi are trying to ‘break’ football in the same way they did the golf so that the ‘only’ viable alternative is a super league, which of course they’ll be bankrolling. If they keep purchasing clubs or investing in them through back doors (hedge funds) etc they could force football into a very uncomfortable position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 2 hours ago, villa4europe said: more so because 20-3 years ago while the likes of la liga still had individual deals the PL were way ahead of the curve and set all this stuff up thats why they have such an audience, the PL put the leg work in to make themselves bigger, same with corporate, marketing and partnering they didn't use their financial power to buy global superstars in the 90s and make themselves the biggest league, if anything it was the opposite, la liga and serie a had the superstars, the PL went to the likes of the US and sold themselves as a league It seems that's quite a romantic way of remembering it. The league was a breakaway from the Football League ensuring the 22 teams involved got a split of a massive pile of cash (see; attempts to have a European Super League recently). It's then seen an escalation of wealth unlike anywhere else in football. Global superstars were absolutely bought in the 90s, just not immediately (as you say, Serie A was particularly huge). Saudi Arabia have just picked up the baton in modern times. Last season, bring one superstar across and see how the exposure goes. OK, success, let's go bigger. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 6 hours ago, Keyblade said: And Saudi Arabia doesn't have this? History of football? Their pro league was founded in 1976 Fans following a local club and passing that down the generations? It's not comparable. I'm not saying it's great that the Premier League dumped money into the game. But there's a difference that's at least worth noting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, The_Steve said: It’s just not about that. It’s about exploiting the tribalism and emotional connection fans have to players to normalise and shut down discussions about their vast human rights abuses. Prime example is the World Cup, hundreds of migrant workers and their families are still facing horrible conditions and a lack of justice in Qatar. But, because sport is a spectacle, it's easy to forget about the structural abuses in these places. It's just not on the minds of a lot of football fans. Don't be surprised if Saudi 2030 also means a World Cup or World Club Cup hosting event. This claim is absurd on the face of it. If the aim was to prevent people from talking about human rights abuses in Qatar, hosting the World Cup was the most spectacular own goal in history, since 'human rights in Qatar' went from something that almost nobody talked about who wasn't either a Qatari dissident or an NGO worker to something that the average man in the stands had to have some kind of opinion on. Do you think I would find more global discussion of this topic in a newspaper database search between 2002 and 2012, or between 2012 and 2022? The answer is extremely obvious. Edited June 23, 2023 by HanoiVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 22 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: This claim is absurd on the face of it. If the aim was to prevent people from talking about human rights abuses in Qatar, hosting the World Cup was the most spectacular own goal in history, since 'human rights in Qatar' went from something that almost nobody talked about who wasn't either a Qatari dissident or an NGO worker to something that the average man in the stands had to have some kind of opinion on. Do you think I would find more global discussion of this topic in a newspaper database search between 2002 and 2012, or between 2012 and 2022? The answer is extremely obvious. Yes, maybe in the eyes of the general public. But in the eyes of the money of the world, big corporations, rival countries, etc... its seen as a country that hosted a world cup, in a very short turnaround, and was able to do so despite the logistical challenges. It's come out of it looking better than it went in to the people that matter to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 52 minutes ago, Vancvillan said: History of football? Their pro league was founded in 1976 Fans following a local club and passing that down the generations? It's not comparable. I'm not saying it's great that the Premier League dumped money into the game. But there's a difference that's at least worth noting. That's just the current guise of their league (like the PL), league football existed before then too. Even if it was 1976, what's the cutoff point for the football to be considered historical? Seems arbitrary. PSG was founded around that time and they're a big club with history, even before the Qatari owners. Even that is almost 50 years, there's 2 or 3 generations there. The people there are absolutely football mad. It's the national sport etc. The Saudi national team is among the best performing teams in Asia on the world stage, at least in my lifetime. They have the second most AFC Cups in history and a Saudi club is the most successful club in AFC Champions League history. They have no less right than anyone to be able to enjoy high level football imo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 24 minutes ago, MrBlack said: Yes, maybe in the eyes of the general public. But in the eyes of the money of the world, big corporations, rival countries, etc... its seen as a country that hosted a world cup, in a very short turnaround, and was able to do so despite the logistical challenges. It's come out of it looking better than it went in to the people that matter to it. Isn't sports washing meant to influence the general public? A sports tournament is not going to change the opinion of other countries or leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 25 minutes ago, MrBlack said: Yes, maybe in the eyes of the general public. But in the eyes of the money of the world, big corporations, rival countries, etc... its seen as a country that hosted a world cup, in a very short turnaround, and was able to do so despite the logistical challenges. It's come out of it looking better than it went in to the people that matter to it. Yes, that's a much more plausible reason, ie hosting a top-level league provides your country with some 'soft power' benefits. And to go back to where we started, one of the teams signing Bernardo Silva does help to improve the overall standard of the league. But I think people do need to remember that we went through this panic once before with China, and then the league imploded with bad debts, malinvestment and poor governance. Maybe Saudi will do a much better job - I wouldn't put it past them - but the flop of the Chinese Super League should make clear that this is a massive challenge that can be failed quite easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaJ100 Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Isn't football haram? Just asking the question to some Saudi puritanicals. I mean ISIS banned music lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbcuk Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Ruben neves has officially gone to this league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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