HKP90 Posted April 22 VT Supporter Share Posted April 22 38 minutes ago, Zatman said: I think the statement is more mature than Klopp accusong a ref to be biased in his face or Arteta abusing and sarcastically clapping refs Maybe if English football media and organisations didnt embrace this scumbag behavior then Forest might have not made the tweet. English football has allowed ref abuse for too long Problem is that manager's jobs are on the line, and appear to be dictated by the incompetence of referees and VAR. If my livelihood even tangentially revolved around someone outside of my control who, because they were not good enough to do their job, could result in my dismissal, you gotta know that I am calling them out in no uncertain terms. I don't think referee abuse should be tolerated, but they absolutely should be called out if they cannot do their job. As much as managers have a responsibility to not abuse match officials, referees have a responsibility to not be shit. Which they demonstrably are. You see it on MOTD all the time. About half of the summary of every game now is- so and so got this decision wrong. The standard of refereeing in this country (and elsewhere as we saw against Lille) is itself wholly unacceptable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 3 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Problem is that manager's jobs are on the line, and appear to be dictated by the incompetence of referees and VAR. If my livelihood even tangentially revolved around someone outside of my control who, because they were not good enough to do their job, could result in my dismissal, you gotta know that I am calling them out in no uncertain terms. I don't think referee abuse should be tolerated, but they absolutely should be called out if they cannot do their job. As much as managers have a responsibility to not abuse match officials, referees have a responsibility to not be shit. Which they demonstrably are. You see it on MOTD all the time. About half of the summary of every game now is- so and so got this decision wrong. The standard of refereeing in this country (and elsewhere as we saw against Lille) is itself wholly unacceptable. If 'the standard of refereeing [everywhere]' is 'wholly unacceptable', I think you ultimately have to ask whether the problem is more to do with your [our] expectations and less to do with the decisions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 16 minutes ago, bobzy said: There's loads more. I'd have to message my Forest-supporting mates, but there was a massive list that got reeled off at the pub after the Liverpool incident I'd be happy to oblige if people want to know more! Just let them know that these things have a habit of evening themselves out, and in this case they just have to average it out going back to the 2022 playoff final. They love that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 4 minutes ago, Davkaus said: Just let them know that these things have a habit of evening themselves out, and in this case they just have to average it out going back to the 2022 playoff final. They love that "Yeah, fair point lads... but. really, it should be Huddersfield in the Premier League, not you guys. So just suck it up!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted April 22 VT Supporter Share Posted April 22 2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: If 'the standard of refereeing [everywhere]' is 'wholly unacceptable', I think you ultimately have to ask whether the problem is more to do with your [our] expectations and less to do with the decisions. Why? It is their job to get decisions correct. No-one is expecting 100% accuracy, but to have (in the case of the Notts forest game) at least two potentially game altering decisions made incorrectly- potentially earning them a draw and a point toward survival, and (in the Coventry game) to have the principal outcome of the game REVERSED due to an incorrect decision that was reviewed by at least 3 officials- sending the wrong team to a cup final, is imo......unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) 9 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Why? It is their job to get decisions correct. No-one is expecting 100% accuracy, but to have (in the case of the Notts forest game) at least two potentially game altering decisions made incorrectly- potentially earning them a draw and a point toward survival, and (in the Coventry game) to have the principal outcome of the game REVERSED due to an incorrect decision that was reviewed by at least 3 officials- sending the wrong team to a cup final, is imo......unacceptable. If no-one expects 100% accuracy, then everyone is expecting mistakes. It's not a surprise that if mistakes occur, *sometimes* they will occur in a visible and potentially outcome-altering way like three penalty claims (though it's far from clear to me that three mistakes were made, I think only the last one is a clear mistake). The implication of 'no-one is expecting 100% accuracy' is that ultimately you have to have some tolerance of human error. Edited April 22 by HanoiVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted April 22 VT Supporter Share Posted April 22 5 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: If no-one expects 100% accuracy, then everyone is expecting mistakes. It's not a surprise that if mistakes occur, *sometimes* they will occur in a visible and potentially outcome-altering way like three penalty claims (though it's far from clear to me that three mistakes were made, I think only the last one is a clear mistake). The implication of 'no-one is expecting 100% accuracy' is that ultimately you have to have some tolerance of human error. Well yeah, but when bad refereeing is not just influencing, but deciding the outcomes of games, particularly a cup semi final, the human error continuum is tilted to the point of being inflected. And it's every bloody week. Not expecting 100% accuracy, but I don't think it's beyond the realms of whimsy to expect 'mostly accurate', or 'occasionally inaccurate'. That's two big games games ruined in one day. By their own figures, which are likely to be wild underestimates, the Premier League have recorded 20 VAR incidents alone- that's 20 incidents which have been considered in slow motion, by multiple cameras for minutes on end- that have been incorrect. And that does not include incorrect calls by refs that were ineligible for VAR review. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) 21 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Well yeah, but when bad refereeing is not just influencing, but deciding the outcomes of games, particularly a cup semi final, the human error continuum is tilted to the point of being inflected. And it's every bloody week. Not expecting 100% accuracy, but I don't think it's beyond the realms of whimsy to expect 'mostly accurate', or 'occasionally inaccurate'. That's two big games games ruined in one day. By their own figures, which are likely to be wild underestimates, the Premier League have recorded 20 VAR incidents alone- that's 20 incidents which have been considered in slow motion, by multiple cameras for minutes on end- that have been incorrect. And that does not include incorrect calls by refs that were ineligible for VAR review. That also doesn't include those decisions judged to be wrong on-field but 'correct' in terms of a (non) VAR intervention. Using those, the numbers are really big. For example, against Brentford, the panel said Carlos should have got a pen on field but VAR was correct to not intervene, so it's not an error. But that error isn't added anywhere. The explanation for a lack of intervention by the unofficial VAR spokesman Dale Johnson is that the fall for the 1st one doesn't reflect the force of the kick. But when you review it in slow motion, it looks not a lot. But I've been booted on the ankle like that, even not as a foul and it's painful. Add to that he's nowhere near the ball and it's a pen. Edited April 22 by StefanAVFC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post The_Steve Posted April 22 Popular Post Share Posted April 22 I’m sure Young’s trolling is going to help temper feelings 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 59 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Well yeah, but when bad refereeing is not just influencing, but deciding the outcomes of games, particularly a cup semi final, the human error continuum is tilted to the point of being inflected. And it's every bloody week. Not expecting 100% accuracy, but I don't think it's beyond the realms of whimsy to expect 'mostly accurate', or 'occasionally inaccurate'. That's two big games games ruined in one day. By their own figures, which are likely to be wild underestimates, the Premier League have recorded 20 VAR incidents alone- that's 20 incidents which have been considered in slow motion, by multiple cameras for minutes on end- that have been incorrect. And that does not include incorrect calls by refs that were ineligible for VAR review. This is in danger of getting off-topic perhaps, but what decision in the FA Cup was clearly 'incorrect'? Have I missed some definitive conclusion about the offside goal being wrong, because to me that looked so close I don't know how anybody could say confidently the decision was right *or* wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 this reel is mental Just awful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted April 22 VT Supporter Share Posted April 22 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: This is in danger of getting off-topic perhaps, but what decision in the FA Cup was clearly 'incorrect'? Have I missed some definitive conclusion about the offside goal being wrong, because to me that looked so close I don't know how anybody could say confidently the decision was right *or* wrong. That was the 'clearly incorrect' element. VAR made a decision to overrule the onfield decision, which was a goal, when they did not have the clear evidence that the goal was offside. That was just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 3 minutes ago, HKP90 said: That was the 'clearly incorrect' element. VAR made a decision to overrule the onfield decision, which was a goal, when they did not have the clear evidence that the goal was offside. That was just wrong. Isn't the point that 'clear and obvious' doesn't really apply to offsides, because they believe (perhaps wrongly) that their lines are factual and definitive? Or 'Factual offside decisions will be based on the evidence provided by fully calibrated offside lines', per the Premier League's website: https://www.premierleague.com/news/1297392 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted April 22 VT Supporter Share Posted April 22 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: Isn't the point that 'clear and obvious' doesn't really apply to offsides, because they believe (perhaps wrongly) that their lines are factual and definitive? Or 'Factual offside decisions will be based on the evidence provided by fully calibrated offside lines', per the Premier League's website: https://www.premierleague.com/news/1297392 I think that's why they just come out with a ruling on those rather than referring the ref, but I would like to see what calibration they use, as in several of the shots showing the lines, they run over Wan Bissaka's foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) 17 minutes ago, HKP90 said: I think that's why they just come out with a ruling on those rather than referring the ref, but I would like to see what calibration they use, as in several of the shots showing the lines, they run over Wan Bissaka's foot. They also chose to use a frame where the ball wasn't a blur because in that frame Wan Bissaka was even further forward and blatantly made the Coventry player onside. The factual element of offside decisions becomes very questionable when you look at the limitations and the inconsistent execution. They need a bigger margin for error that favours the attackers. They expanded the lines this year to try and acheive this, but it's clearly not enough. And yes, we'd probably be worse off with our style of play, but at least football would have more goals. Edited April 22 by MrBlack 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 5 hours ago, bobzy said: The thing with the handball appeal (as with the one against Grealish on Saturday) is that Young moves his arm toward the ball. For me, that's what makes it a handball. I think the first one is iffy... but then there have been so many worse penalties given this season. The handball probably should be given and the foul on Hudson-Odoi is just a stonewall penalty. His arm was moving before the ball was kicked. It was a completely natural movement. The entire law is broken imo. It's not in the spirit of the game to give a penalty because the ball hit someone's hand from 2 feet away, with their arm in a natural position. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 3 minutes ago, Keyblade said: His arm was moving before the ball was kicked. It was a completely natural movement. The entire law is broken imo. It's not in the spirit of the game to give a penalty because the ball hit someone's hand from 2 feet away, with their arm in a natural position. It moves back towards the ball. A very natural, instinctive movement... but his arm goes toward the ball. It's coming down slightly as the cross goes over, then flicks back out to make contact. I'm not fussed about it not being given, but I'd want it if against Villa etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 39 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: this reel is mental Just awful. What is the conspiracy against Nottingham Forest? I'm sure every team can make a reel like this. Ours could probably look as juicy as this from memory. There's no conspiracy, the refs are just not very good and often make mistakes. But no, I'm sure it's because the FA (?) don't want Forest in the PL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 3 minutes ago, Keyblade said: What is the conspiracy against Nottingham Forest? I'm sure every team can make a reel like this. Ours could probably look as juicy as this from memory. There's no conspiracy, the refs are just not very good and often make mistakes. But no, I'm sure it's because the FA (?) don't want Forest in the PL. It's the sheer 'wrong'-ness of them for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted April 22 VT Supporter Share Posted April 22 5 minutes ago, Keyblade said: What is the conspiracy against Nottingham Forest? I'm sure every team can make a reel like this. Ours could probably look as juicy as this from memory. There's no conspiracy, the refs are just not very good and often make mistakes. But no, I'm sure it's because the FA (?) don't want Forest in the PL. I'm not sure I take much in the way of comfort from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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