rjw63 Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 On 03/09/2022 at 09:57, sne said: Bantz dwarves ftw. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 9 hours ago, Rds1983 said: Loving all of Neil Gaiman's replies on twitter to all the random people defending Elon Musk for saying Rings of Power was bad and telling Gaiman he made an awful show. Loads of better tweets but can't link as they all contain swear words by the Elon Musk nutters. I don’t get it. Is he saying that Sandman, his own thing, is bad? Did Musk say ROP was bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Not watched it yet, will wait until theres a few more episodes. Looking at reviews for a feeling, obviously being aware of some review bombing reporting also. I was very surprised to learn that IMDB is owned by Amazon and they’ve suspended all reviews currently (fair enough) but also removed any reviews below 6 out of 10 including the majority of those, a large number containing genuine criticism. But have left up a number of 10/10 reviews some of which strongly look to be in response to review bombs. Obviously I’m aware any voting platform is open to manipulation but for them to just be swept away by the platform in this manner is something I perhaps naively never really thought of for such a respected platform. Too big to fail with what they’ve spent on it I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rds1983 Posted September 8, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted September 8, 2022 10 hours ago, ender4 said: I don’t get it. Is he saying that Sandman, his own thing, is bad? Did Musk say ROP was bad? Musk said ROP was bad and too woke. Gaiman was asked his opinion and defended the show. Musk fans attacked Gaiman telling him he made ROP awful and Musk was right. Generally it's Musk fans being idiots thinking he made ROP and him being sarcastic to them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 8 hours ago, penguin said: Not watched it yet, will wait until theres a few more episodes. Looking at reviews for a feeling, obviously being aware of some review bombing reporting also. I was very surprised to learn that IMDB is owned by Amazon and they’ve suspended all reviews currently (fair enough) but also removed any reviews below 6 out of 10 including the majority of those, a large number containing genuine criticism. But have left up a number of 10/10 reviews some of which strongly look to be in response to review bombs. Obviously I’m aware any voting platform is open to manipulation but for them to just be swept away by the platform in this manner is something I perhaps naively never really thought of for such a respected platform. Too big to fail with what they’ve spent on it I guess. It's this weird viscous cycle that is the current environment. Basically big companies making these movies/shows are focussed on controlling the narrative. They know in the past movie goers would pay attention to movies that had positive reviews and they would do better than movies that had negative reviews. I to this day go to wikipedia and check if a movie was well received when deciding my list of movies to watch. The system works because the movies I watch are not the big budget stuff Disney put out. Full Nelson, Pig and Silence are last movies I watch for example. Now the big companies know positive reviews are important for a large part of the success or failure of a movie or show. So they fix the game, they give access to a handful of major reviewers who always get the special access and they are fully away by their editors that they can't write a negative review because their magazine or website or whatever cannot afford to be blacklisted by Disney for example and lose the access they get. So you have this virtuous circle, you help us and we help you. All the articles written before something comes out etc.. helps with marketing and hype. It's all part of a co-ordinated marketing the giant companies with huge budgets can afford. People have become aware of this in recent years, it was common to see rotten tomatoes have high reviewer scores and lower audience scores. But the flip was often for dumb fluff or over the top movies like Fast and Furious or whatever. People knew critics wouldn't like it but they did. Now people see, nearly everything ccc company puts out is always given great reviews and they know from watching it, it's not great. So you have got the negative reviews of movies from audiences that unbiased critics would also give negative reviews of. This then goes to another level, people get angry at the quality of shows dropping and there's an element of review bombing, where they vote down shows and movies as a protest of the biased critic reviews and the drop in quality of shows and movies. So you end up with biased critic reviews to the upper and biased (via review bombing) reviews to the lower from audience. At the same time you've the usual batte of narratives around it. Show runners have to call anything negative toxic, racist, whatever. If you have any criticism at all you are the same as an actual racist abusing others online. The flip side of that is there are bigots and racists actually attacking cast, staff etc. online. So, the ones who lose are those who just want to know what is good to watch and what isn't. I know what movies will still have unbiased reviews. I know there is no way to know if a tv show is any good without word of mouth. I also do hope the drastic quality drop of the "content" times is reversed. I think Apple are trying to produce new unique shows. Severance for example, Slow Horses etc.. Disney however are trying to output enough content to keep people subscribed and the quality is very low. We'll see how it plays out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 As for ROP, I think Amazon made a big mistake. They got inexperienced show runners recommended by JJ Abrams in 2018 and a long production time. They really didn't understand how big the fandom of Tolkien is and how much they've read and studied the books and the Lore. This isn't like Marvel fans with millions of comics and reboots and changes happening throughout history and lots of movie and show attempts over the years. There is one world here Arda, one set of characters and fans know them intimately. The error was they treated it like a Marvel adaption, we just need character names, a setting and we'll do the rest. Where Peter Jackson knew he had to stick to the spirit of Tolkien and knew this was key to the success. People love the Tolkien books, people love the Jackson movies. This ROP is just generic content, it's not Tolkien. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rds1983 Posted September 8, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted September 8, 2022 6 hours ago, CVByrne said: As for ROP, I think Amazon made a big mistake. They got inexperienced show runners recommended by JJ Abrams in 2018 and a long production time. They really didn't understand how big the fandom of Tolkien is and how much they've read and studied the books and the Lore. This isn't like Marvel fans with millions of comics and reboots and changes happening throughout history and lots of movie and show attempts over the years. There is one world here Arda, one set of characters and fans know them intimately. The error was they treated it like a Marvel adaption, we just need character names, a setting and we'll do the rest. Where Peter Jackson knew he had to stick to the spirit of Tolkien and knew this was key to the success. People love the Tolkien books, people love the Jackson movies. This ROP is just generic content, it's not Tolkien. However, of all the LOTR and Hobbit stuff out there the Tolkien Estate have been most involved and are happiest with ROP. Admittedly, it's not the author himself but as close as possible to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 18 hours ago, Rds1983 said: However, of all the LOTR and Hobbit stuff out there the Tolkien Estate have been most involved and are happiest with ROP. Admittedly, it's not the author himself but as close as possible to it. The Author and his Son are the only two people who really cared about his actual writings. The "Estate" now is just about money, where can I get it. Financially it's in their best interests to say everything is great. We're a long way removed from Christopher and his comments about the Hobbit movies. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 (edited) Think it's fine but nothing special. Not really a fan of all these mystery boxes/ mini cliffhangers that feels like cheap tricks to get people to argue and speculate on social media rather than good storytelling. The writing and dialogue is only slightly better than Disney stuff sadly but still a solid 6/10 for far for me. Edited September 10, 2022 by sne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted September 9, 2022 Share Posted September 9, 2022 (edited) Life is oftentimes down to how we interpret it. 'The Hobbit' was the first proper book I read by myself. I took it on after being read the Harry Potter books by my mother at bedtime. I still remember as a 10 year old telling my teacher at my new school when I'd been asked what books I like, that my mum had repeatedly told me I should read 'great expectations'. My teachers reaction was of concern. Anyway, I do not recall any language that inspired thoughts of skin colour in The Hobbit. Tolkien was a Christian, or so I'm told. The connotations that come with that statement in itself will elicit the differing understandings that people have regarding the essence of what it means. I've been told, by numerous people, that Christianity is more about developing a relationship with God, and Catholicism is more about the adhering to what should and shouldn't be done according to institutionalised dogma within that community. Now that may or may not be the case, I cannot and will not profess to have an understanding or much of an interest in the matter. It is an interesting discussion though, despite my lack of. I don't dedicate or invest enough energy and focus towards it to consider my input on the matter to reflect any truths that would serve as insight, so forgive this, however I still wonder if these interpretations are reflective of individuals perception and interpretation of the writings, or if they are indeed inherent in Tolkiens model and works. I think the book, 'Death of The Author' raises some interesting discussion and perspectives on this matter. Edited September 9, 2022 by A'Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 (edited) Episode 3 was so bad I couldn't finish it. The dialogue problems if anything have got worse. It's so stiff and lifeless which is compounded by the clanking wooden delivery. Lots of new characters this time and almost all of them jar you out of the world because you can see the acting. The direction didn't help either. So many strange decisions, from the perfume ad half way through, to the unnatural positioning of the actors as they delivered lines. So often they face away from each other during conversation. Functionally they would not be able to hear the other and it's just not what people do. In a serious conversation eye contact is important. It all starts to scream "stand on mark X to deliver line 1 then move to mark y to deliver line 2" which may give them too much credit as most lines seem delivered with the actor frozen in place stiffly reading words they don't really understand the meaning of. The one noteness of the show remains too. In the human and elf world the the emotional range goes all the way from serious to stoic. Anger, is almost always demonstrated by the actor going from serious deadpan to more serious in a slightly lower voice and they ALL do it in the same way. The only exception to the rule is the harfoot crew who now seem imported from a primary school harvest festival. For a community that have been together for a thousand years they sure do have a spread of accents going on. Its just all so flat. I was about 50 minutes in when I started checking to see how long there was left. I was checking because I was bored. When I realized how bored I turned it off. I'm sure the episode ended with some cliff hanger or big reveal, but my big reveal was that I just don't care to find out Edited September 10, 2022 by Straggler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 Sorry but I just can't get over how clunky it all feels. There are no conversations in this show, there are just actors waiting for their turn to deliver a line. The chemistry is zero. It is dead, inert, lifeless. I don't give a stuff about sticking to the lore and all that, all I wanted was a fun show with orks and wizards and elves and dwarfs. It is not fun. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted September 11, 2022 Author Share Posted September 11, 2022 @Straggler I agree 100%. I also couldn't finish episode 3. They keep introducing new characters and storylines that are just as boring as the previous ones. I am not invested emotionally in any of them. I don't care if all the characters were swallowed up by a giant sinkhole. The acting and dialogue is forced and flat. Even the casting seems riddled with mistakes. These actors have little charisma. The scruffy Harfoot girl is maybe the best of them. But I can't blame the actors too much when it's the writing that is the real culprit. The best part of the show are the city renderings. I'm this close to just not watching any more of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted September 11, 2022 Author Share Posted September 11, 2022 It's disappointing because while I originally thought it would be a failure, the trailers made me reconsider my prejudice. It looked amazing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bielesibub Posted September 11, 2022 Share Posted September 11, 2022 TLOTR, anyone else seeing TLDR ? Maybe it's just me and I really am too lazy. On the series, I quite like it so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted September 11, 2022 Share Posted September 11, 2022 I'm another for the quit during episode 3 gang. If there's a massive overhaul for series 2 I may return but that seems unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 19 hours ago, maqroll said: @Straggler I agree 100%. I also couldn't finish episode 3. They keep introducing new characters and storylines that are just as boring as the previous ones. I am not invested emotionally in any of them. I don't care if all the characters were swallowed up by a giant sinkhole. The acting and dialogue is forced and flat. Even the casting seems riddled with mistakes. These actors have little charisma. The scruffy Harfoot girl is maybe the best of them. But I can't blame the actors too much when it's the writing that is the real culprit. The best part of the show are the city renderings. I'm this close to just not watching any more of it. Yeah, I very nearly name checked Nori as the only bright spark in the whole thing. Spoiler Her little story with the stranger was the only vaguely interesting plot in the whole thing too, right up until the point the stranger became Mr Bean for a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 Ok so as I've covid I've been sat at home trying to pass the time. I've watched the 4 episodes of house of the dragon and the 3 of ROP. This will contain tiny bit of spoilers just specific pieces of dialogue. I don't think ROP is the disaster I was expecting. I've already disregarded it from being anything to do with Tolkien bar peoples names and places. So the fact it tramples all over the lore is not a criticism I'll bother brining up again. I'm reviewing it as generic new fantasy show. First of all it looks fantastic, the budget has not been wasted in terms of visuals. The issue with the show for me is the writing, especially the dialogue is terrible and I've worked out why in particular it is so bad. They are trying to write it to sound like Tolkien and also they lack the skill as writers to develop the characters (like House of the Dragon can) so they throw in exposition constantly. The dialogue between Galadriel and Elrond, where he asks her "tell me about you, your travels, where you have been". To which she replies "Oh Elrond, you're such a politician". Like how does his question elicit that response, it's hilarious. Galadriel killing the cave troll like a ninja and everyone praising her constantly for her warrior prowess. They just want to describe everything, they want to tell you Elrond is a politician, tell you Galadriel is an awesome warrior. Spoiler This lack of skill as writers means they have absolutely no subtlety. Halbrand wanting to forge something. Halbrand getting angry and suddenly destroying 5 people who attack him. He's as obviously Sauron as the nose on your face. The symbols Sauron has been leaving everywhere. It's Mordor, this is just lazy breadcrumbing hoping people online would wonder what it is and come up with theories. Galadriel jumping off the boat with a plan to what swim back to middle earth? Elrond and Durin rock breaking challenge!! The other main problem is the protagonist is very unlikeable. Why have they written her this way? A show hinges a lot on the protagonist. She's just an arrogant b***h talking down to everyone! Just seems a bizarre way to write a character I assume the show wants you to root for. I think the inexperienced show runners and poor writing have done for this show. Especially when it's compared to the level of writing and acting in House of the Dragon. Like the latter show proves there is still good writing in modern shows. It's a bizarre decision on Amazons part to give such a huge budget to people with no experience and to give it to such poor writers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 What they should have done is tell a grand story in 8 long episodes. But it will likely be a 5 series long melodrama. We are getting close to a time of Isildur being king and fighting against Sauron (fine) and Elrond looks like a 6th former, rather than a true leader of the elvish world. It feels childish rather than grandeur. Also, I don't like the young Gandalf (I assume that's him?). Give him more of a presence, a voice, a direction, rather than looking like a homeless guy who doesn't know what's happening. Books suggest he is God like, and been around since forever. I get he only arrived in Middle Earth, but he looks lost rather than having a real purpose. He is after all one of the original spirits who created the world. He doesn't behave like it. So far, Galadriel is the only impressive character and in line with expectations. It feels like a Walking Dead remake of one of the greatest stories in fiction literature. It's a poor approach. It feels a bit marvely/childish. It should be more adult, serious, mystical, mythical, slower. Maybe they should have thrown the kitchen sink at it and buy rights to music from Jackson's films. Hobbit is and should be treated like a child's tale. Lord Of the Rings (and its previous history) is dark. This isnt that, at least yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted September 17, 2022 Share Posted September 17, 2022 (edited) Probably the worst episode yet. It's such poor writing. Also a very boring show. Spoiler Pharazon with his speech in the streets, suddenly ends with "drinks for everyone" and out of nowhere on the street is lots of waiters handing out drinks!! Isildur letting a rope slip and then he and his friends catch it. This leads to all three of them being fired for good !! Celebrimror your father said to me, "one day my future will be in his sons hands" I totally forgot that, it only came back to me now. The sun is plot armour. Orcs can fight in the sun when the story requires it and can't go out in the sun when the story requires it. Adar lets Arondir go to deliver a message, yet his Orcs pursue him and try to kill him!! Edited September 17, 2022 by CVByrne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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