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TLOTR: The Rings of Power


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I'm optimistic that there will be good bits to it.

My worry is that there's so much that they need to make up and so much of it doesn't lend itself to making a straight forward narrative that it's going to be a bit crap and betray some of the source material in doing so.

The stuff with the proto-hobbits feels like it's there because hobbits are 'LotR'-y and they feel they need to make it more LotR to sell it. But hobbits are irrelevant to anything in what this series is about. Part of the reason they are so important to LotR is because they are nobodies in the world. Absolutely nothing in the Second Age concerns them.

The stuff we've already covered with Galadriel is just wrong for the character and feels dumb.

They'll lose some of the essence of the nature of the world Tolkien made by heavily curtailing the time line. I get why they have done that, the events this show will cover takes place over thousands of years, you can't easily build a narrative that conveys that satisfactorily on the screen, and it creates issues were you'll have human characters have entire lives in a couple of episodes while elvish characters live on, which is a cool idea in a book but doesn't work on screen from a narrative POV, and creates practical issues with the production with casting etc. But that is important to the themes of the stuff they want to cover, the concept of Elves and humans experiencing the world differently which in turn drives their actions.

So far it's all a bit... Fanfic.

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Meteor man musings

Spoiler

It must makes sense for it to be Sauron. The trailer hints at it pretty pointedly, the flames around him at the impact are very 'Eye of Sauron'.

But... Might they throw the canon in the bin completely and make that be Gandalf? Gandalf has a connection with fire, it appears the man can control fire, it's known he has a close connection with the Hobbits and this seems to suggest the first creatures that encounter the meteor man are the not-Hobbits. And he looks a lot like the guy that is dressed very 'Gandalf-y' in some other shots.

But Gandalf doesn't come to Middle Earth until well into the Third Age... So might they have gone down the route that one of the blue wizards is about at this time (and therefore basically becomes 'not-Gandalf' for the show). I think Tolkein suggested the blue wizards appear in the Second Age at one point?

 

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2 hours ago, sne said:

Wish I could be but after having seen what they did with their Wheel of Time adaptation I just can't.

Fully expect this to be Galadriel warrior princess with her being emotional and rash and not having any man (or elf) telling her what to do going on adventures and kicking a**. And the rest being some sort of half arsed Willow/Ewok adventure story with the not hobbits learning about the bigger world and getting into trouble taking up far too much time.

Sure it will look nice thou.

I'm assuming they'll learn their lessons from Wheel of Time and ready to be disappointed. I'm glad I didn't try WoT  as I'd like to read the books.

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16 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

I'm assuming they'll learn their lessons from Wheel of Time and ready to be disappointed. I'm glad I didn't try WoT  as I'd like to read the books.

Pretty much no semblance between book and show so you can still do both ;)

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7 hours ago, Chindie said:

Meteor man musings

  Hide contents

It must makes sense for it to be Sauron. The trailer hints at it pretty pointedly, the flames around him at the impact are very 'Eye of Sauron'.

But... Might they throw the canon in the bin completely and make that be Gandalf? Gandalf has a connection with fire, it appears the man can control fire, it's known he has a close connection with the Hobbits and this seems to suggest the first creatures that encounter the meteor man are the not-Hobbits. And he looks a lot like the guy that is dressed very 'Gandalf-y' in some other shots.

But Gandalf doesn't come to Middle Earth until well into the Third Age... So might they have gone down the route that one of the blue wizards is about at this time (and therefore basically becomes 'not-Gandalf' for the show). I think Tolkein suggested the blue wizards appear in the Second Age at one point?

 

On your last point

Spoiler

Definitely not. All 5 wizards came over the end of the 2nd age/beginning of 3rd age following the first defeat of Sauron where they don’t d destroy the ring. All 5 come from over the sea but Gandalf is the last one and is given the 3rd elven ring by the chap at the city on the sea (name escapes me).

The idea of the meteor being Sauron is more likely but given they are likely to give no f***s about the original story it probably will be Gandalf with some CGI nonsense. I hope not though, the only characters that should be used from LOTR are the elves and even then only Elrond and Galadriel should be given prominence. Elrond was still quite powerful even then and it was his brother who was the leader of the Numenor men who play a key part in the second age.

I do suspect that it will be not very “canon-esq” but hopefully they don’t completely screw it over. I definitely got the vibes of “Galadriel Warrior Princess” though.

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It's 100% guaranteed to be like Kathleen Kennedy was Producing it for Disney.

What is clear is they have basically just used the names of characters from Tolkien and then rewritten them for the modern political messaging. 

Why is Galadriel a warrior princess general of armies? Why is Elrond a politician who by looks of it doesn't fight?

If you love the books and wanted to see the second age adapted as faithfully as possible you already know this will be a let down. Like any fans of Wheel of Time are already aware of. Sadly Tolkien fans are in for the same treatment.

Edited by CVByrne
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10 hours ago, sne said:

Wish I could be but after having seen what they did with their Wheel of Time adaptation I just can't.

Fully expect this to be Galadriel warrior princess with her being emotional and rash and not having any man (or elf) telling her what to do going on adventures and kicking a**. And the rest being some sort of half arsed Willow/Ewok adventure story with the not hobbits learning about the bigger world and getting into trouble taking up far too much time.

Sure it will look nice thou.

Probably nailed it on the head there. Galadriel will have to be like all the Mary Sues in modern movies and TV. Like Rey in Star Wars. Always right, always the most powerful and ultimately everyone will see it by then end and be saved.

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On 09/03/2022 at 14:34, Chindie said:

The reaction to this has been bizarre, and the never ending stream of idiots on YouTube banging the drum about how awful it is that (shock horror) they've cast some black people in roles that aren't inherently evil.

There's a couple of things going on here.

The first, and the one that ostensibly the people whinging online claim it's about, is that Tolkein describes elves as being fair skinned beautiful creatures, but this show has a black elf in it. Therefore the show desecrates the great work of Tolkein and thinks it's better than his work. The problem I have with this, is that it doesn't matter. Yes, Tolkein describes elves in a particular way, but the description isn't actually relevant to their characters, and therefore introducing a character that isn't pale skinned changes nothing of any value.

The second point is that Tolkein's larger work has very strange depth to it and the diverse casting clashes with that. That strange depth is... Well, Tolkein conceived the story of Middle-earth as being a pseudo mythology of Britain, inspired by Germanic and Nordic mythology, and therefore having black people in it would be contrary to the history of an island whose inhabitants in the past would have been white... which ignores the fact that if you go back far enough you discover that the original peoples of the island would have had darker skin. This also ignores that Tolkein himself wasn't exactly putting forth a strictly 'accurate' mythology - he was a massive Catholic and openly states that his story is riddled with Catholic allegory to the extent he said the world he conceived is basically a Catholic story... Which sits strangely with a pseudo founding mythology of Britain with Germanic and Nordic inspiration...

It's basically nonsense. There's tons to be worried about with this adaptation - it's based on extremely limited sources (they have the rights to the appendices of LOTR where they refer to the Second Age of the world, which is really thin stuff to work with. They also aren't allowed to contradict any events that happen outside of the things they expressly have rights to, so they have to adhere to the story even where they can't actually tell the full details of that story...) and so they're having to flesh out a lot of things with created characters and elaborating on things that are barely described in the work they've got to work with.. Which means they're making up shit to pad it out. The black elf? New character. The ancestors of the hobbits appear, despite them being a complete irrelevance in the time this series covers. Galadriel is a major character and shown to be a warrior, but we know she isn't anything of the sort. The trailer shows a bizarre scene with what appears to be a man arriving in Middle-earth in a meteor, which I can only assume is their way of hyping up the concept of creatures being sent to the world by the gods. And the series is curtailing the time period it covers heavily - Tolkein describes the Second Age as lasting thousands of years, with important characters from the world of Men living and dying while important elves just live on, this show is going to chop that down so it takes place over a far shorter period, so we lose some of that feeling of the Elves experiencing this time in a different way to other races, and the idea that the stories getting told here take place over centuries, multiple life times of men. It also isn't helped that there's basically 2 stories that take place in this period, and one of those was basically covered in the intro to Jackson's films.

But none of that is anything to do with there being black people in it who aren't evil. It doesn't matter. And the moaning about it is pathetic.

I know this post is from a few months ago but it's an excellent well written opinion. 

A few comments to add. In relation to the casting of black actors when Tolkien described elves and TLOTR is as you say a mythology of Britain and hence at the time the population would be white Europeans. I think people can have an issue with that because appearance matters to the world building. So some people would have preferred they stuck with what Tolkien wrote. But I agree with you, does it really matter all that much? No

Strangely its the fact they have the black elf with a modern perm haircut from an electric hair trimmer and they've given Elrond a modern hair cut too. Was it that hard to stick with the long hair the elves are known for? 

As stated in my post above. The only thing that is going to matter and why I know the show will be a disaster to anyone who loves Tolkien books is the fact this is essentially a reimagining / reboot. Where all the amazing characters Tolkien wrote about are completely changed to fit into the story the showrunners want to tell and the modern political messaging etc.. 

That's the biggest shame. We all would have loved a Peter Jackson show on the Second Age of middle earth. 

 

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20 hours ago, Chindie said:

Meteor man musings

  Hide contents

It must makes sense for it to be Sauron. The trailer hints at it pretty pointedly, the flames around him at the impact are very 'Eye of Sauron'.

But... Might they throw the canon in the bin completely and make that be Gandalf? Gandalf has a connection with fire, it appears the man can control fire, it's known he has a close connection with the Hobbits and this seems to suggest the first creatures that encounter the meteor man are the not-Hobbits. And he looks a lot like the guy that is dressed very 'Gandalf-y' in some other shots.

But Gandalf doesn't come to Middle Earth until well into the Third Age... So might they have gone down the route that one of the blue wizards is about at this time (and therefore basically becomes 'not-Gandalf' for the show). I think Tolkein suggested the blue wizards appear in the Second Age at one point?

 

Spoiler

I've just been reading up about hobbits to see how these proto-hobbits might align with them, and I think that he'll almost certainly be Sauron, as the Hobbits were originally settled near Mirkwood (then Greenwood) and migrated west over the Misty Mountains due to Sauron's corruption of the forest.

Given we see a group of them travelling and they appear to be the first to interact with the meteor man, I think their plotline will be about how the Shire was first settled.

 

Although I did read that Tolkein did indeed say at one point that all the wizards came during the Second Age around the forging of The One Ring, as a counter to Sauron, however both dates for their arrival are from his unfinished manuscripts, so not sure which would be official canon.

 

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Looks better than it should, but the thing is the stuff they have there that looks particularly 'epic' is probably going to be limited to the First Age flashbacks from the first couple of episodes. Balrogs, for instance, are Not a Thing in the Second Age. They get largely wiped out at the end of the First Age, with a small number said to escape to the depths of the earth (hence the one in Moria that is discovered by the Dwarves' greed leading them to dig too deep...).

It is looking better than it had been though.

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On 22/07/2022 at 22:13, Chindie said:

Looks better than it should, but the thing is the stuff they have there that looks particularly 'epic' is probably going to be limited to the First Age flashbacks from the first couple of episodes. Balrogs, for instance, are Not a Thing in the Second Age. They get largely wiped out at the end of the First Age, with a small number said to escape to the depths of the earth (hence the one in Moria that is discovered by the Dwarves' greed leading them to dig too deep...).

It is looking better than it had been though.

It's become clear that what actually happens in the 2nd age doesn't really matter to the show runners. If they have decided to kill off Celeborn so Galadriel isn't encumbered by her husband for the show they will do whatever they want. I'm expecting half of what Isuldur does in Tolkeins writing to be given to Tar Miriel in this show (assuming that's the Numenorian woman from the trailers). 

It's very clear this show is not aimed at Tolkien fans. It's their own show that's more just loosely based on Tolkiens writings. 

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  • 5 weeks later...

As has been pointed out by every Tolkien fan a million times already, none of this show is Tolkien bar some character names. At best it's very very loosely inspired by Tolkiens work. It's just a generic modern show - with modern american political messages of course - which is using the "brand awareness" of Lord of the Rings as a way to attract viewers. Every character Tolkein wrote about has been completely rewritten and the show has more totally made up characters than Tolkein characters. It's a shame because if show runners who loved Tolkein and tried to be faithful to his writings like Peter Jackson did with his LotR movies it could have been a good show Tolkein fans wanted to see.

Edited by CVByrne
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59 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

As has been pointed out by every Tolkien fan a million times already, none of this show is Tolkien bar some character names. At best it's very very loosely inspired by Tolkiens work. It's just a generic modern show - with modern american political messages of course - which is using the "brand awareness" of Lord of the Rings as a way to attract viewers. Every character Tolkein wrote about has been completely rewritten and the show has more totally made up characters than Tolkein characters. It's a shame because if show runners who loved Tolkein and tried to be faithful to his writings like Peter Jackson did with his LotR movies it could have been a good show Tolkein fans wanted to see.

I agree with you. It looks terrible, it's totally detached from the lore and the feel of Tolkien's universe, with a side order of identity politics, like we need more of that in films and TV lately.

It might do well, but it won't be well received by anyone who has read the Silmarillion, unfinished tales etc. Looks more like game of thrones / Narnia than Middle earth to me.

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1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

As has been pointed out by every Tolkien fan a million times already, none of this show is Tolkien bar some character names. At best it's very very loosely inspired by Tolkiens work. It's just a generic modern show - with modern american political messages of course - which is using the "brand awareness" of Lord of the Rings as a way to attract viewers. Every character Tolkein wrote about has been completely rewritten and the show has more totally made up characters than Tolkein characters. It's a shame because if show runners who loved Tolkein and tried to be faithful to his writings like Peter Jackson did with his LotR movies it could have been a good show Tolkein fans wanted to see.

Still can't forgive Jackson for his attempt at the Hobbit. 

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Just now, Mister_a said:

I agree with you. It looks terrible, it's totally detached from the lore and the feel of Tolkien's universe, with a side order of identity politics, like we need more of that in films and TV lately.

It might do well, but it won't be well received by anyone who has read the Silmarillion, unfinished tales etc. Looks more like game of thrones / Narnia than Middle earth to me.

Yeah I can imagine people who have no knowledge or just a passing interest in Tolkein can just see the show for the show. 

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1 minute ago, Rds1983 said:

Still can't forgive Jackson for his attempt at the Hobbit. 

Yeah they were very very very bad. tbh I felt Return of the King was a big letdown for me because of what Jackson did with the Battle of Pelennor Fields and the lazy Deus Ex Machina of the Ghosts. I wanted to see that battle at least done faithfully

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