Steven Gerrard

[Peter Griffin]

10 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

If Poch came in and lost 4 won 1, I would be more confident of him turning it around, as with any experienced manager. Gerrard is learning on the job, so these loses, 11 in 14 to remind you, mean much more than a bad patch and that he just needs time.

He needs to go manage a lower league team like Vieira did, and work his way up. Rangers to Villa is far too much of a jump.

Sorry but he won't succeed here!

The key word is Learning, by definition, that means he will get better 

[Keyblade]

2 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

OK, but ... [cue the sounds of a chicken-wire barrier being set up in front of this post] to an extent, this "teetering on the edge" is also a social media construct.   

I know you're much more open-minded than many, @Keyblade, so I don't mean to zero in on your comment as unthinking or silly.  I also know the majority of the board doesn't agree with me, and that's cool. But I also do think we set up these "red lines" Gerrard supposedly better not cross, and there are valid reasons to resist such thinking.

There is no stone tablet from on high that says a loss to West Ham this weekend means something really catastrophic just happened. I still think Gerrard is fundamentally an extremely skilled young manager based on his playing career and his work at Rangers, and he needs to be given at least until December to bed in.

Gerrard could lose the next four games, and it absolutely wouldn't change my mind, even while, inside, emotionally, I would be going nuts. But I think we're at a moment in the club where we need to learn to rise above the emotions and see the larger picture. Many of the "genius" managers held out as enviable counter-examples to Gerrard had terrible win percentages last year, but they were given time -- and now they're hailed as superstars.

If SG does get the sack prematurely, and a new manager comes in and turns Villa into Bayern Munich, I'll be wearing a smile on my face. I also won't be dogging any new manager with "I told you so" knee-jerk negativity, but that still doesn't mean I think we're currently at the jumping-off point with Gerrard. 

 

 

I agree with you in principle. I just think if we lose on Sunday VP will get really toxic. It'll be 3 points from 4 games. Next 2 games will be Arsenal/City, so likely 3 points from 6. I struggle to see how he survives that. 

One thing I will say is that a lot of the managers you mention had previous pedigree to warrant sticking with them and being patient. There's nothing of the sort with Gerrard both in his previous experience as well as what he's currently doing at Villa. There's not much to hang your hat on. I'm usually of the opinion of giving managers time, but there has to be something there to warrant that. You can't just blindly wait for the sake of it. 

[foreveryoung]

28 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

The key word is Learning, by definition, that means he will get better 

But you don't get time to learn in the PL. You need to learn and then you may be ready. It's a huge gig the Villa job too, certainly not a place to learn your trade. He needed to start in the Championship, if not a PL team with a bit less ambition, a Southampton maybe.

He's gone straight from the territorials to the sas.

[viivvaa66]

43 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

The key word is Learning, by definition, that means he will get better 

Give him a few years and maybe he will win League One with us.

[Marka Ragnos]

49 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I agree with you in principle. I just think if we lose on Sunday VP will get really toxic. It'll be 3 points from 4 games. Next 2 games will be Arsenal/City, so likely 3 points from 6. I struggle to see how he survives that. 

One thing I will say is that a lot of the managers you mention had previous pedigree to warrant sticking with them and being patient. There's nothing of the sort with Gerrard both in his previous experience as well as what he's currently doing at Villa. There's not much to hang your hat on. I'm usually of the opinion of giving managers time, but there has to be something there to warrant that. You can't just blindly wait for the sake of it. 

Trying to remember how Potter did at Swansea, but wasn't he just OK at Brighton in his first year, and actually didn't look great at times last year either, but showed improvement over time and at the end did well? I think Potter did worse in his first year at Brighton than Gerrard did at Villa. I do think this is the year Gerrard needs to lift us, but at this point, I see his trajectory as analogous. Would hate to play matchy matchy too much with their careers. But Swansea to Brighton isn't dissimilar from Rangers to Villa, if you can look past the big fact that Villa are historically a much more important and likable club compared to that seashore rubbish.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Marka Ragnos

[Thug]

1 hour ago, Peter Griffin said:

The key word is Learning, by definition, that means he will get better 

Lol, no it doesn’t.

 

 

[Tomaszk]

1 minute ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Trying to remember how Potter did at Swansea, but wasn't he just OK at Brighton in his first year, and actually didn't look great at times last year either, but showed improvement over time and at the end did well? I think Potter did worse in his first year at Brighton than Gerrard did at Villa. I do think this is the year Gerrard needs to lift us, but at this point, I see his trajectory as analogous. Would hate to play matchy matchy too much with their careers. But Swansea to Brighton isn't dissimilar from Rangers to Villa, if you look at the big fact that Villa are historically a much more important and likable club.

But Potter did do eight years in Sweden taking over a 4th division side. Took them up to the top flight, into Europe, and eventually left a club legend.

That's where he probably made the sort of errors like a formation that doesn't work that Gerrard makes every week.

1 hour ago, Peter Griffin said:

The key word is Learning, by definition, that means he will get better 

And when does this start? When do we give up if he hasn't got better in 6/12/18/24 months?

Why are we paying someone £6m to learn what they are doing, while damaging the club and costing us money?

He stays the season, we go down IMO.

Am I right that you aren't necessarily supportive of this stay of execution, you just like explaining it?

[Tomaszk]

Just now, Thug said:

Lol, no it doesn’t.

Correct.

[Thug]

1 hour ago, Peter Griffin said:

The key word is Learning, by definition, that means he will get better 

In that case give me the job.

I’ll happily learn whilst doing it
 

 

[Keyblade]

7 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Trying to remember how Potter did at Swansea, but wasn't he just OK at Brighton in his first year, and actually didn't look great at times last year either, but showed improvement over time and at the end did well? I think Potter did worse in his first year at Brighton than Gerrard did at Villa. I do think this is the year Gerrard needs to lift us, but at this point, I see his trajectory as analogous. Would hate to play matchy matchy too much with their careers. But Swansea to Brighton isn't dissimilar from Rangers to Villa, if you can look past the big fact that Villa are historically a much more important and likable club compared to that seashore rubbish.

Potter had the remarkable work he did in Sweden as well to back him up. Not to mention he very obviously and very quickly changed Brighton's style of play. The results weren't too dissimilar to Hughton's in his first 2 years but the performances were almost night and day. Always near the top of the xG charts for example. That's the kind of thing you can hang your hat on, and make you say "if we give this guy a bit of time and money, he can pull it together", and sure it enough it seems to be. Right now we just look rudderless, and quite frankly not very good. Watching Villa is an absolute chore these days, I can't lie to you. There's nothing about his tenure I can grasp onto and say that all it needs is time to come together. Even he doesn't seem to be able to pinpoint anything. He just talks in vague generalities and talks about signing players to help. It's all just uninspiring. 

[Peter Griffin]

5 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Correct.

It’s not correct. If u learn something u improve at it. It’s not a difficult concept to understand 

[flashingqwerty]

1 hour ago, Peter Griffin said:

The key word is Learning, by definition, that means he will get better 

Is there any sign that he is though?

The team still isn't comfortable with the system, is still making basic errors and still lacks an identity.

I'd actually argue we look worse now than when he arrived especially given the caliber of players brought in.

He's on a road to nowhere, and has no idea how to put it right.

[Davkaus]

It's not a given that someone can put learnings in to practice, not to mention the being no guarantees about the speed of learning.

We're Aston **** Villa, not a training camp.

[Peter Griffin]

44 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

But you don't get time to learn in the PL. You need to learn and then you may be ready. It's a huge gig the Villa job too, certainly not a place to learn your trade. He needed to start in the Championship, if not a PL team with a bit less ambition, a Southampton maybe.

He's gone straight from the territorials to the sas.

AVFC employee SG with the full understanding he was a novice. They will have been fully aware he will need to go through a learning process. He was employed because of potential and what he has achieved to date in the knowledge he had no premier league experience. 
this is the same reason Chelsea paid 20m for Chuk. It is the potential.

whether that risk taking was the right decision or not is not the point. We have rolled the dice and we need the balls to see it through 

[flashingqwerty]

16 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Trying to remember how Potter did at Swansea, but wasn't he just OK at Brighton in his first year, and actually didn't look great at times last year either, but showed improvement over time and at the end did well? I think Potter did worse in his first year at Brighton than Gerrard did at Villa. I do think this is the year Gerrard needs to lift us, but at this point, I see his trajectory as analogous. Would hate to play matchy matchy too much with their careers. But Swansea to Brighton isn't dissimilar from Rangers to Villa, if you can look past the big fact that Villa are historically a much more important and likable club compared to that seashore rubbish.

Difference is that with Potter there was a clear style, tactic, approach, and the players suited it and seemed to know what to do.

I don't see any of that from Villa.

[flashingqwerty]

7 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

It’s not correct. If u learn something u improve at it. It’s not a difficult concept to understand 

Learning how to play football did not make me better at it as I lack the physical attributes to do what I know I need to do.

Even if SG knows what to do, so far he hasn't shown that he is capable of doing it.

[Zatman]

2 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

It's not massive considering what you have to pay for players, so I doubt they are worried about it.

And the potential relegation or league position costs

[flashingqwerty]

5 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

AVFC employee SG with the full understanding he was a novice. They will have been fully aware he will need to go through a learning process. He was employed because of potential and what he has achieved to date in the knowledge he had no premier league experience. 
this is the same reason Chelsea paid 20m for Chuk. It is the potential.

whether that risk taking was the right decision or not is not the point. We have rolled the dice and we need the balls to see it through 

How long do we wait?

If after 6 games we still have just 3 points is that long enough?

If we have 5 by Xmas is that long enough?

Keep waiting and it'll be too late to save us and we will end up back in the Championship.

Since SG took over, if we continue with the same points per game, we will be relegated.  And his points per game is on a downward trend along with the quality of the football we play.

[Zatman]

1 hour ago, Peter Griffin said:

The key word is Learning, by definition, that means he will get better 

Like when Tim Sherwood was learning on the job or Steve Staunton learning on the Irish job. Both supreme football managers now i am guessing.

Learning doesnt mean you will get better

 

[Keyblade]

7 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

AVFC employee SG with the full understanding he was a novice. They will have been fully aware he will need to go through a learning process. He was employed because of potential and what he has achieved to date in the knowledge he had no premier league experience. 
this is the same reason Chelsea paid 20m for Chuk. It is the potential.

whether that risk taking was the right decision or not is not the point. We have rolled the dice and we need the balls to see it through 

We should probably be questioning the club at this point then. I understood the gamble when we were in the Championship, but gambling on a guy, paying him a lot of money, modifying the transfer strategy to support him (which carries its own inherent risk), doesn't seem particularly smart imo. I don't see the reasoning behind it, especially considering we sacked the last guy who was learning to be a PL manager in favour of what I thought would be someone who could take us to the next level. Why wait 1 year+ for something that might never happen? Can't wrap my head around this.